/ot/ - Off-topic

Quite a bleak view of humanity ya got there mate. Pre'y sure if that were the case, humanity would have already killed itself off.

>>19036
Nah, I never said humans were dumb or couldn't cooperate. We keep chugging along even if we can't help but keep making the same mistakes and falling prey to the same short-comings over and over again.

People aren't that selfish, humans are social animals and we support the tribe the family the clan whatever. Well, its selfless on the level of individual its selfish on the level of a species. We try to make "the world a better place" … for humans to live and breed on.

As far as "resisting human nature" what would we do without it? Like I think we would never feel a need to do anything, we would have no motivation or drive, we would be an empty shell. We are just animals that evolved the capacity to think, thinking is just a tool to aid the animal.

>>19043
The humans are social argument is wrong. People are social to benefit themselves ultimately. There's safety in numbes, being around people is less boring, and being around people makes you feel better about yourself. This behavior is just another way our and related species survive.
Nobody actually cares that much about making the world a better place. You have people making money and a few people who have enough money to indulge their fleeting pity by throwing some of it at a charity or by building a bunch of toilets that nobody wants to use(Bill Gates). Most of that though is just to make yourself look good to other people and stroke your own ego.
Nobody can be free of human nature, but individuals can resist its worst aspects. The majority of people just don't give a fuck though. Look around you. Look at your day to day interactions and how often people will screw each other over. Look at history. It's not hard to see it everywhere. Hell, in the past people just fucked each other up without thinking too hard about it. We're just softer and less aware of ourselves now because we're more comfortable and have no need for that type of violence. Becuase humans are egotistical, we naturally think that we are actually above that when at our core we' didn't.

>>19044
>The humans are social argument is wrong. People are social to benefit themselves ultimately.
These two statements contradict each other, social is social it matters not why… acting out of instinct has no motives or higher purpose its all "becuz I wanted to" "becuz I felt like it"

Okay so, from what I gather (correct me if I'm wrong) the whole point your making is "people never do anything out of the goodness of there hearts, they do things because of selfish or instinctual reasons"
To which I respond with "So?"
I suppose your disillusioned with the the concept of "caring", seeing it for what it really it but dose that really change anything? Regardless of how it happens, instinct, selfish motives, whatever, caring benefits everyone and is generally good.
Whatever it is thats going on only seems to be working out for humans, we are more prevalent than ever.

>>19052
The argument was that people can't be selfish becuase they are social. I pointed out that those two things aren't mutually exclusive becuase people are social out of their own interest to a large extent.
>your whole point is
That's not my point, and it's not what this thread is about. People do occasionally do random things out of empathy for others. I never said they didn't. This thread isn't about whether human nature is evil or whatever, it's about what human nature is and how easy it is for people to act against it.

>>19056
well heres a problem
Can't we say anything humans often do is human nature? Like how would we even build a definition that could set the framework to determine what is and isn't.
Whenever people on the internet argue about "human nature" they all seem to have wildly differing ideas of what it is and how "humans really work"
Hmmmm… I suppose the best way I could think of defining it would be thing we do without thinking about it, like things without a premeditated analysis of WHY we are doing it, when the only thinking spared is for HOW to do it..
Hmmmm no perhaps thats a bad way to define it, idk

>>19057
>Can't we say anything humans often do is human nature?
No. There's patterns. That's how you set the framework. What is constant? Look at smoking. That's both not something humans inherently do or need to do. People do have the tendency to become addicted to things that make them feel good, but the ability to resist temptation is something anybody can consistently do if they have enough self-discipline. It's in a person's best interest to avoid giving in to temptation(controlling your emotions, not abusing drugs, not procrastinating). Whether or not a tendency to be addicted is part of human nature is subjective I guess. Even then you could consider the motivation behind addiction to fall under prioritizing self-interest(which could mean feeling pleasure). It's probably one of the more extreme forms that that behavior takes.

Look at something like Communism. Human nature will not allow for a system in which each part exists to service the whole and every part is treated equally. People want more for more work. Why should doctors be given the same as factory workers? Why try to make something good if I get nothing more out of it? Why should I try at all if it makes no difference to me? Not only that, but people in, "organizational positions", will always make sure that they're more comfortable than everybody else. Some people who are passionate enough can circumvent this, but not millions of people squirming around and trying to push themselves to the top of the pile over the course of decades. It violates human nature.

I don't really know if it's harder to train self-discipline or train true selflessness. The latter is just totally irrational to me. Maybe i'm projecting, but I don't think anybody is capable of wrapping their heads around why that's something you should aspire to.

Do you see any holes in my list?

>>19059
I suppose you could say cultural norms are what goes against human nature or rather controls and regulates it in a way, it determines the ideas of right and wrong.

>>19060
Yeah, but even cultural norms are a product of human nature to an extent. Every culture, no matter how isolated, has some things in common. Social classes, formal/informal conduct, clans, familial power structures, religion. Following rules set in place by other people is also part of prioritizing self-interest.
I guess curiosity and classifying are another part of human nature.

>>19029
That's animal nature.

People are stupid- Wizard's First Rule

>>19061
People response to incentives.

>>21167
>>21173
Predictably Irrational by Dan Ariely.

>>21421
Tiger

OP gets it. Selfishness is driven by ego, which convinces us that we're separate entities from the world around us. It's a necessary system for survival so it makes sense it has spread to every human.

Almost all behaviour can be explained by evolutionary psychology bar behaviour that clearly doesn't produce any kind of advantage (suicide), however within this framework it falls into maladaption.

Need some sweetness to live.

>>21695
That's true…

>>21464
Year of the Tiger 2022

>>22788
Wizard's First Rule

War; what is it good for? Absolutely nothing…