/ot/ - Off-topic

>I actually like the first game the most because it doesn’t fit the mold that the would later be set in subsequent games.
Well, I also like it a lot too, but you're judging it like a danmaku game when it isn't, so it's unfair for the others for "fitting in the mold too hard" when the first game isn't even the same genre but an arkanoid clone.

>(You’ll notice that the earlier games less formulaic in other ways too like the first game having a male boss and the pc98 games having non-humanoid characters that never get mentioned anymore because even the creator of Touhou can’t remember every character).
That shit ain't actually male, it's a spirit that polymorphs (even into a girl, if you look at it carefully). The other games also have non-humanoid enemies, they just aren't bosses.

>Touhou has around 160 characters. And none of them have a personality. (…) but they’re almost nonexistent in the actual games. (…) Not even Reimu, who appears in every game, has much depth to them and the characteristics she’s described with are a tad contradictory. The secondary main character, Marisa, is actually more fleshed out.
This is true if you look at the games only, but the games come with readme's that touhoufags who translate the games don't even bother checking which supply all the information not present in the game itself (and contrary to other things of the franchise such as manga or the music albums, they are part of the game). If you actually think about it it's difficult to insert snips of story into a bullet hell because their main point is to smash the screen up (as you mention later). Unfortunately, most of that stuff goes untranslated because touhoufags assume you know everything about everyone.
Now, I admit they don't give that much personality to most characters either, but reimu and marisa are pretty covered, and up to eiyashou most characters are fine too.

>I know that one person is making these games and not everyone's an artist, but the art doesn’t actually have to be bad. Zun could just hire an artist.
Well, you're dismissing the fact that ZUN wants to work on the thing all alone. While the art isn't really good in the first games that doesn't really makes them less fun. The sprites are actually fine, and from th10 onwards zun made things much better background-art wise. Although, ironically, I consider the first games better than the latter ones.

>Zun also apparently makes the music first and then everything else around it which is a terrible way of doing things.
?
>Every aspect of a game should be made with consideration for every other part.
? but it works pretty good. I know not many people are aware of japanese and chinese lore and thus lose a lot of what's going on behind, but ZUN connects a lot of little dots into his games from mythology and many other things. Tohno, Kaguya-hime, Hakugyokurou, Yakumo, numeric symbolism, shinto, buddhism; he used to put a lot of thought into his games (don't know of th12 onward, thing got too shitty).
>The theme of a sailor based character(Chiyuri) doesn’t have much of a feeling of the sea and the theme of an engineer(Rika) doesn’t feel mechanical because those things can only be put in when they’re thought of in advance.
Okay, I see what you mean here. Seems more like a personal idea of it more than a general thing, though, if you ask me. Still, remember these were his firsts games, and what's more, for a system where you had to work from ground 0 because APIs were non-existent. They're more solid than many doujins I've played, and the PC-98 art is actually pretty good compared to other stuff I've seen.

>>17724 (cont.)
>Really, I want somebody to explain it to me.
There's really a big problem with this thing. Touhou isn't bad, in fact is pretty great if you enjoy what it can offer, but the thing is that westernfags call it "THE SHIT" and spam it like bronnies used to fill everything with ponies some years ago. Then, what you get, is people liking touhou because "IT'S THE SHIT". I mean, nothing new here, it's known that if a group of individuals has a liking of something, newcomers will also like it whether or not they would in other circumstances (somebody was discussing this in /yn/ the other day). So, at the end of the day, you get a bunch of retards spaming touhou even though they really may not see the full of it. Of course, naturally, these people get something else to jerk off to in due time, but the net flux of cancerous faggots in any fandom always seems to be 0; meaning, the same amount of faggots who leave it equal the amount of faggots getting in it. Then you get people who hear it's "THE SHIT" and try the games out only to find that it isn't actually their shit and say "what? how is this popular, again?" and hate it, even though in normal circumstances they may have enjoyed it for what it is (thus missing all they could really enjoy from the franchise).

Another thing you're dismissing is the fact that touhou isn't only the games, there are music albums and novels wirtten by zun (meaning, no fan-shit). I personally think that's the main place you should look for "personality" in the characters and more in-depth story, rather than trying to do that in the games, because that's where all the holes in the games are filled. If I had to put it into words, the games are only major "events" happening during the history of gensokyo, while the novels try to explain more the workings of the world and how are the characters in their normal life. Zun has a very unique style of writting that sadly doesn't convey too well in the translations either, so again, westernfags lose a lot of the playwords and hinting and most of the good stuff that lingers in the japanese language.
Also (as I've already said), touhou plays a lot with old myths from china and japan and puts them in place rather interestingly, because it makes it feel like gensokyo is actually a real place, even with the weird logic, because it mixes magical-like way of thinking with scientific observations of the same phenomena, making you think that actually all that shit actually makes sense. When a work makes you feel that immersed, then I say it's making a bloody good job. Touhou does this jolly well, moreso if you enjoy oriental mythology and religion.

Unfortunately, a big number of the western fandom ignores all of this and preffers to indulge in memeing and fanwanking instead of actually playing the games or reading the novels/music albums, so that makes them pretty obnoxious and thus puts off everyone who isn't part of their shitty circles, and thus the "you either like touhou or don't" line emerges.

>>17724
>when the first game isn't even the same genre but an arkanoid clone
Eh, yeah, I see what you mean, but the way that the ying yang ball interacts with Reimu's movements and the way that you constantly have to both avoid on coming fire while trying to position yourself in a way that allows you to attack creates a surprising level of depth that far surpasses arkanoid. Situations where it is more appropriate to fire cards at the ball and more appropriate to hit the ball directly are constantly switching. The ball itself is also a projectile that changes speed based on how you hit it and can harm you which adds another layer to the game. Reimu's ability to deflect projectiles standing still and in a sort of cartwheel move while having to avoid her own weapon creates a chaotic and exciting vibe. I wouldn't call it just an arkanoid clone. I guess what I meant to say is that I prefer the first game to the later ones, even if they really can't be compared. Call it a personal preference that I threw in. In terms of arkanoid clones, the first Touhou is a lot more unique than later games in terms of danmaku games, if that makes any sense.
>The other games also have non-humanoid enemies, they just aren't bosses.
I don't think of random enemies as being real characters. I was referring to Genjii and Mimi-chan. Also, while the first boss might not be completely male, they're the closest that we ever got. Also, YuugenMagan, Kikuri and Sariel aren't the same copy and pasted little girls that make up every boss in later games(Kikuri's art is also surprisingly good and I have my doubts that Zun made her sprite, wasn't he in a group or something at this time?)
>the games come with readme's
Eh, that's basically like the game's manual though. The first Mario has a pretty interesting premise to it if you bother to read the manual, but that's pretty iffy when it comes to judging the game itself.
>that doesn't really makes them less fun.
It's a polish thing. Maybe that's just a nitpick. I said in my review that it might be due to Zun's, "stubbornness".
>PC-98 art is actually pretty good compared to other stuff I've seen.
You have to admit that there has been much much better though.
>>17725
>Another thing you're dismissing is the fact that touhou isn't only the games, there are music albums and novels wirtten by zun (meaning, no fan-shit). I personally think that's the main place you should look for "personality" in the characters and more in-depth story, rather than trying to do that in the games, because that's where all the holes in the games are filled.
When judging a movie, the books that they're based on are kind of irrelevant. I guess with Touhou all of the media that makes it up work in tandem with each other so that's not that accurate of a comparison. Maybe my idea of a Franchise is too traditional. My review was somewhat of a reaction to the excursiveness of some parts of the fandom.

>>17726
>excursiveness
spell check messed me up, excessiveness

>>17724
>(Kikuri's art is also surprisingly good and I have my doubts that Zun made her sprite, wasn't he in a group or something at this time?)
Amusement makers, but I don't remember anyone else being cited in the staff roll. Doesn't mean that he couldn't have received some help though.

>Eh, that's basically like the game's manual though. The first Mario has a pretty interesting premise to it if you bother to read the manual, but that's pretty iffy when it comes to judging the game itself.
Not really a manual per se, you have the background of the characters and sometimes the background of the setting of the game (th7, for example). I actually read them after playing the games and it made feel everything feel more solid, story wise. Again, I'm mentioned them because that's where the "doesn't have enough depth" part is filled.

>It's a polish thing. Maybe that's just a nitpick. I said in my review that it might be due to Zun's, "stubbornness".
Don't get me wrong, ZUN could do with learning how to draw, what I meant is that the graphics as they are are sufficient, so to speak. It's not as bad as, say, undertale. For doujin standards it's pretty passable.

>You have to admit that there has been much much better though.
Doujin? Hardly. From guys who knew how to draw and spend their free time drawing in computers for years? Yeah. Most of the doujin floppy CGI specials suck balls (and for a reason, CGI drawing was ridiculously hard back in the 90's), and the one or two that don't were made by a guy with mad skills that later found a job in a company like C-ware, Telenet, Queensoft or elf or something (I have jedi somewhere, maybe I could upload it so you can see how ridiculous it is? I gave up ten minutes after trying to draw an eye).
Touhou is pretty respectable compared to other stuff, moreso coming from a guy who doesn't know how to draw. I actually haven't seen yet anyone using animated primitive shapes in their backgrounds, too. I'm not saying ZUN is good, I'm saying that they are pretty good for a 1996/97/98 doujin game, and actually better than some games made by companies.

>When judging a movie, the books that they're based on are kind of irrelevant. I guess with Touhou all of the media that makes it up work in tandem with each other so that's not that accurate of a comparison.
Pretty much. Touhou isn't only the games, that's the problem. A fairer comparison would be to think of the games as "novels" on their own and everything being a linear plot. If you read tome 2 and 5 but not 1 and 3 and 4 of course you're missing things.

>My review was somewhat of a reaction to the excessiveness of some parts of the fandom.
Yeah, we bot agree on that. It's really sad to see something with some quality being raped by a stupid fandom, but we can't help it.

>>17728
>Not really a manual per se, you have the background of the characters and sometimes the background of the setting of the game
Game manuals in the 80s and 90s had a lot more to them than instructions of controls, so I would say that they're comparable.
>I'm not saying ZUN is good, I'm saying that they are pretty good for a 1996/97/98 doujin game, and actually better than some games made by companies.
All right, but that doesn't really explain the windows games. It's like how I said. Improvements should be made if the means to do so are available. If the means didn't exist in the 90s, they do now.
>I have jedi somewhere, maybe I could upload it so you can see how ridiculous it is?
That sounds interesting.

I just thought that it was worth comparing the final and only boss of Arkanoid with the final boss of Highly Responsive of Prayers.
https://youtu.be/Th-Z6QQ5AOQ?t=1883
https://youtu.be/Y7AJi-qnzRk
It's kind of funny.

>Game manuals in the 80s and 90s had a lot more to them than instructions of controls, so I would say that they're comparable.
Yeah. Pics are how things look in windows. The first one being the background setting for touhou 8, the second being the character introduction of the same game. Of course, these weren't included in the translated version of any game (so naturally nobody has ever seen the damn thing). And this is how PC-98 manuals looked like. Most people don't even know these exist (I translated the index and and asterisk was added to show where the important bits are). https://pastebin.com/1BQEQMgr

It's worth nothing this method of including information in readme's is standard in japanese gaming (at least in doujin) so it's not like zun is just being autistic. Also, kinda hard to fit all that text into the games, too.

>All right, but that doesn't really explain the windows games. It's like how I said. Improvements should be made if the means to do so are available.
Oh yeah, I agree on that, but getting somebody to draw his things would ruin the spirit of the game, somehow. At least I see it that way. Nothing should stop him of learning that a hand isn't a ball with bananas sticking out of it though.

>That sounds interesting.
Not on my computer right now, I'll post it later.

>>17730
Sariel feels more alive somehow. Then again, there are 10 years of difference between rei'iden and arkanoid.

>>17731
>It's worth nothing this method of including information in readme's is standard in japanese gaming (at least in doujin) so it's not like zun is just being autistic. Also, kinda hard to fit all that text into the games, too.
meant noting*

It's like with MLP, nobody watches the series except for a few turbo-autists, but everyone loves the characters. In this case, nobody plays the games but everyone loves the characters.