/hikki/ - NEET / Advice

the only reason i'm posting here is to help this thread grow because I feel like this will be a good thread.

why do you think that anon

>>6971
because I want to see what a scitzoids life is like and why they became NEET'S.

but why

>>6970
anon this entire board is filled with schizos, and I don't mean the schizoid kind. you literally have some fag spamming this board everyday with schizo messages and nobody gives a fuck, and when any discussion happens its just flamebaiting. you're probably not gonna get any decent discussion.

as for my opinion, schizoids just seem to be [VAGUE LABEL], like all other shit from the DSM. its very easy to diagnose a schizoid with clinical depression and vice versa. focus on your environment and train of thought first and pills second, they barely do anything without the former.

i m sorry

i don t care about anything

i m out

>>6977
When I looked this up, all I could think was "Is this seriously considered a disorder?" It just sounds like valuing different things. And apparently if you don't value what normies value, that makes you ill?

Maybe it's more complicated then that, but to me it just sounds like anyone who deviates from the norm is immediately labeled "ill", when really, it's probably moreso the fact that we're born into a culture that doesn't accommodate us that's the problem.

>>6980
yes and no, to some extent it is being different from normie values. but at the same time, it does have some effects that very much do set it as a disorder for various reasons.

it tends to cause a permanent malaise, severe detachment from emotions, severe damage to the ability to form emotional connections to anything amongst other issues.

in essence, it's like being a sociopath without the benefit of being a sociopath and with some of the negatives of severe depression permanently thrown into the mix. forever wanting human contact yet being unable to connect with people in any way is not a fun way to be.
though understanding just how much of this is disorder and how much is just the modern world being fucked is still undecided given that therapists and psychologists are more incompetent than ever.

>>6982
>forever wanting human contact yet being unable to connect with people in any way is not a fun way to be.

Can confirm lol. I'm a little confused on what constitutes schizoid personality disorder. Every source i've found has claimed "Neither desires nor enjoys close relationships, including being part of a family." as a symptom. Yeah, the inability to do so is also mentioned, but it seems a lack of desire itself constitutes a symptom.

As an aside, I found an interesting wikipedia extract on the subject. "Some critics such as Nancy McWilliams of Rutgers University and Parpottas Panagiotis of European University Cyprus argue that the definition of SPD is flawed due to cultural bias and that it does not constitute a mental disorder but simply an avoidant attachment style requiring more distant emotional proximity. If that is true, then many of the more problematic reactions these individuals show in social situations may be partly accounted for by the judgements commonly imposed on people with this style. However, impairment is mandatory for any behaviour to be diagnosed as a personality disorder. SPD seems to satisfy this criterion because it is linked to negative outcomes. These include a significantly compromised quality of life, reduced overall functioning even after 15 years and one of the lowest levels of "life success" of all personality disorders (measured as "status, wealth and successful relationships"). However, determination of what qualify as "impairments" or as "negative outcomes" is itself potentially subject to cultural bias. People with SPD may not regard a lack of social-status or successful relationships, for example, as a harm. Furthermore, correlation with negative outcomes does not necessarily demonstrate that these outcomes were directly caused by the schizoidal traits. Rather, it may be that these outcomes are the result of discrimination against people with SPD, who may be viewed as abnormal."

but yeah i agree anhedonia and emotional detachment are problems. But given that those are symptoms of lots of things, I sorta wonder whether SPD itself has any value as a distinct diagnosis.

>>6980
>but to me it just sounds like anyone who deviates from the norm is immediately labeled "ill"
yes, shit like ODD exists

>>6980
>>6983
While it comes off as just a personality type, there is definitely something going on in the brain that I think qualifies it as a non-disruptive disorder. There are things that I and other people diagnosed share that we have no business sharing due to how different our circumstances were/are. Regardless of time and place, even across continents, cultures and upbringing, we share very specific traits, actions we take/activities we do, and interests. It's not just 'you dont like people but are lonely' as it tends to be portrayed, though that is the core of it.
The issue with mental disorder diagnosis is that it requires the diagnosed disorder to cause negative outcomes. I don't believe SPD causes negative outcomes on it's own. You're far more likely to get a bad life from chronic depression than if you exclusively have SPD. I believe that it's a disorder in the sense that there are wires crossed in the brain that are not meant to be crossed in such a way by default.

I find it hard to describe what exactly I mean about shared traits and what makes it different from a personality type. I'm an examples person my brain works on imagery and comparisons, technical description and writing isn't my strength. If you'd like I could perhaps use myself or characters from media to express how an individual with SPD experiences life in a uniquely different way than both healthy people and those with other mental disorders.

>>7021
Just for the record, in order for a set of exhibited experiences or behaviors to be considered a "personality disorder", it isn't even necessarily a prerequisite that the brain be "wired" abnormally. From wikipedia on personality disorders: "Personality disorders (PD) are a class of mental disorders characterized by enduring maladaptive patterns of behavior, cognition, and inner experience, exhibited across many contexts and deviating from those accepted by the individual's culture. These patterns develop early, are inflexible, and are associated with significant distress or disability."

That's an important distinction because, in order for a personality disorder to be diagnosed, all that is required is that you meet the behavioral or experiential criteria laid out (Typically the ones laid out in the ICD or DSM.) It could be, that you meet those criteria, but there isn't necessarily any abnormalities in your brain.

So when you say "I believe that it's a disorder in the sense that there are wires crossed in the brain that are not meant to be crossed in such a way by default.", while this could be the case, and it very well may be the case, it isn't a necessity that it be the case for you to be considered a schizoid. It is actually the personality itself that is the object of the diagnosis, not some abnormality of the brain it indicates. Obviously, PD's aren't pointless diagnosis's, since individuals experiencing them often experience distress as a result. But what about when they don't? Can you even call it a disorder? I'd argue not.
…At least, that's what my infinitesimally small understanding of personality disorders is. I don't really believe anything I say with certainty.

>If you'd like I could perhaps use myself or characters from media to express how an individual with SPD experiences life in a uniquely different way than both healthy people and those with other mental disorders.

I'm interested.

>>7023
But reading through this, I just realized that I inadvertently made an argument in favor of SPD as a diagnosis.

>Obviously, PD's aren't pointless diagnosis's, since individuals experiencing them often experience distress as a result. But what about when they don't? Can you even call it a disorder? I'd argue not.

If you flip this around, the conclusion becomes "If the set of behaviors or experiences DOES cause distress, then SPD is useful as a diagnosis"

>>7023
> It is actually the personality itself that is the object of the diagnosis, not some abnormality of the brain it indicates.
Some personality disorders have diagnosis criteria that I would not call personality traits though. Most of them have widely recognized symptoms that aren't part of the diagnosis criteria either, but are seen in pretty much every person with the disorder in question. The name personality disorder is bad I think, the definition itself is far broader than just personality.
The whole field of medical psychology looks like a circus to me though so what do I know lol. I'm no professional.

>I'm interested.
I have two examples. One is from a video game and is the bulk of this text because it requires explanation. The 2nd is a character from a book that I recommend reading or listening to, it's only a few hours long and youtube has plenty of readings. The book is called The Stranger by Albert Camus, it's a good portrayal that represents SPD very well as a whole. It's from the main characters perspective so it gets you inside his mind and how he thinks and views things.

The other character is the Outsider from Dishonored. He doesn't really represent SPD as a whole, but the social/emotional aspects that people would typically see are well represented by him. He lives the perfect schizoid life.

The most obvious part I think is that the Outsider lives within The Void, a world he can shape to his will and is kind of like a dream. When he wants to interact with the real world he can without any issue. This is like the schizoid fantasy that every person with SPD has. Since people with SPD don't have superpowers though retreating into a fantasy life is an unhealthy daydream at best :). It's easy to get so lost in your fantasies you mix up real memories and fantasy ones.

The Outsider also gets to have relationships entirely on his own terms. He appears and disappears on a whim, only interacting with others when he feels like it. He chooses a few favorites to fulfill all his social needs. However, these favorites have no way to contact the Outsider in return.
This is exactly how someone with SPD wants relationships to be. A few good friends who they see when they need to be social, but only when THEY need it. It's like being hungry, once you've eaten you don't care about food anymore. It's very contradictory because of the two extremes. Schizoids need the acceptance of their friends, but at the same time they don't want to provide anything for those friends.

The Outsider hides his true self from the people he interacts with, to the point where there are no cracks in his persona until the final game that is focused entirely on seeing who he really is. This fits into the idea of having 'overt' and 'covert' personality traits. He presents himself as impersonal, self-sufficient, and stoic. In reality this is to cover up his jealousy of regular people, his reliance on others, and his lack of any strong feelings towards anything. The overt personality is common and diverts attention away from the schizoid because it leaves very little for people to think about.

I'm tired of writing.

>>7073
Thank you for the analysis. Sounds a bit like what I'm going through.

Not pleasant.

How are you certain of having SzPD? I don't intend to make this sound like a loaded question but what was your childhood like and what's the earliest age you point to of exhibiting introverted tendencies or being unable to socialize normally?

Yes, I have that. It was pretty miserable right out of high school and attempted suicide (poorly) once when I was contemplating the kind of existence it would be working some boring shit job eight hours a day for decades while having nothing to really draw much enjoyment from in life. That was 7 or so years ago, and my situation has improved a decent amount since. I can give more details if you want to know anything in specific.

>>7527
I was a pretty normal kid until around the age of 11-13. The most obvious 'symptom' was that I stopped going to parties: little gatherings and birthday parties were very common, but I found that I didn't enjoy them at all. I got along with people just fine, and the entire class was small and close knit, but I just got nothing out of it, and it was tiring to talk to people or be in crowds. Started refusing invitations (this was received suitably as 'strange' by peers and my parents but nobody made too big a deal out of it at the time).
Second obvious symptom was a complete lack of interest in relationships and women. Never had it, even at the age when the hormones are supposed to be at their highest. Well, there was one minor incident at age 11 around the time I was just stopping going to parties, but I'm pretty sure that was due to peer pressure, and there has never been any kind of urge since.

From then on I kept the 3 closest friends I'd made until the end of high school, and we were still close for that entire period, although I never 'missed' them or social interaction when I went without it. Nor did I ever feel compelled to contact them once high school ended. I've had no close relationships since, and have also mostly distanced myself from my family.

>>7528
I agree with the poster who says there's wires in the brain that are crossed "abnormally". And that while symptoms may line up with your experience and feelings it isn't nuanced enough to be sure, and I certainly don't trust any psychologist or psychiatrist to be honest or not themselves drugged-up. It says (on Wikipedia) you're born with SzPD which is why I asked for what age symptoms started. There are parallel disorders like negative schizophrenia, which eats at your personality and cranial function without the hallucinations, and leaves you apathetic towards reality, making human connections, and sex though I don't think SzPD decays you by itself as you already start at a "low point". SzPD is quite rare as a diagnosis though those who have it are fine with it or don't care for seeing mental health workers, so even on places as niche as this I question how common it is but it is somewhat plausible for 10-300 schizoids or similar gather on obscure imageboards. It couldn't be anything mentally "wrong" with us to begin with but just the internet's effects on societies and the current world order falling apart impacting our behaviors and morals and etc. because of what we find to be a proper reaction, like there's no future to look forward to.
>I can give more details if you want to know anything in specific.
What would you hope to get out of it.

>>7529
>What would you hope to get out of it.
Not much. It's just something I've never talked to people about in any depth, so I wanted to. Putting thoughts to text helps organize them. Plus it's a way to spend some time.
You can say these are selfish posts, since they're half written for myself.

> It says (on Wikipedia) you're born with SzPD which is why I asked for what age symptoms started
Really? I see onset listed at late childhood/adolescence, which tracks.

> It couldn't be anything mentally "wrong" with us to begin with but just the internet's effects on societies and the current world order falling apart impacting our behaviors and morals and etc. because of what we find to be a proper reaction, like there's no future to look forward to.
I don't think so. In my case, and by induction in the general case of szpd, I'm confident it falls far into the 'nature' end of the nature-nurture spectrum. I wrote out a whole spiel delineating the reasons I think so but it got real long and boring, so just believe me.

> so even on places as niche as this I question how common it is but it is somewhat plausible for 10-300 schizoids or similar gather on obscure imageboards.
You probably won't find many gatherings of schizoids, for obvious reasons. I've never seen one. But you might find more of them in this kind of place by chance than you would in a random sample of the population.

Regarding the issue of whether it's really a 'disorder', it's a nuanced problem. It's demonstrably made my life harder in the past to the point I can't in good conscience call it a bogus diagnosis, but even at my worst point I don't think I would've wanted 'treatment' to become more psychologically normal. And once you have a handle on exactly how you're different and have developed strategies, I've found the downsides navigable enough.
If I were to give a psychologist advice on treating szpd people that would be it, I suppose. Veer towards simply getting them to accept their weirder-than-usual personalities and learn how to cope with the world not being designed for people like them. And by that I don't mean only wishy washy 'feelings' stuff but practical things, like maintaining a minimum of social relationships and communication for everyday life and such.
I'm sure there are lots of other conditions that end up in the same kind of place.

>>7531
I've read quite a lot of bores so yours can't be drudging as I'm interested in what you have to say and also because if I might have it. I have the "symptoms" to a T and don't think anything's necessarily wrong with me for having them but am still amicable towards the act of befriending and used to be a talkative person who cracked jokes (not that I was sunshine), though looking back at when I was homeschooled I would've been comfortable not saying anything to anyone and that I didn't want to be lonely hence why I forced myself to talk but that could just be me ignoring my gut to stop seeking others' approval. A lot of my morality may just come off as having it as well, and I don't know what came first and if it came subconsciously. I deduced I could be a sperg, negative schizo, depressed, a mere moody sycophant, etc. so I'd like to hear how you feel. The company I keep could've also made me one manually so maybe I was nurtured into it and therefore not really have it, or I surrounded myself with such people in the first place because our frequencies blended better. I'm playing up the disorder like it's supposed to fit into this box and personality that normal people who don't understand view it as which is obnoxious and insufferable but for the sake of covering all angles and its guidelines I muse. I know this post is garbage because I've recently been mindfucked. I want to know for myself if I have it because I am only a human and therefore can be quantified and understood better, not because I want a label.

>>6982
"schizoid personality disorder" doesn't cause anything, it is a description of symptoms. Compared to real disorders, having the symptom itself is the disorder regardless of underlying causes.

>It's demonstrably made my life harder in the past to the point I can't in good conscience call it a bogus diagnosis
This is entirely wrong and the main reason why I don't like "schizoid personality disorder". It has not made your life harder. What has made your life harder was your inability to connect with people, your fear of intimacy, and your destructive personality. You do not have schizoid personality disorder any more than stacy has whoreish slut disorder. If there is a biological difference in people with spd, then there is a biological difference in everybody with a unique personality.

I'm curious what you were going to say about nature v. nurture so I could have a focused base to my experiences and thoughts on the logic and nature of it. If it's something that can develop from circumstance can it also regress with time and effort, how much of it converges with the post-war isolation and mental sickness of our age, it only has a low diagnosis rate because few people care to get it confirmed by psychologists and are unbothered by it so how many "schizoids" exist, it's oddly widespread for a mental disorder or much of humanity simply has become more jaded and withdrawn. None of the symptoms stuck out to me as illogical to get induced to or something that can't be inherited nor comes off as anything more than a state of mind.

When I read about it for the first time it seemed like a maladaptive introverted personality that underwent childhood transgression/trauma, similar to how the earlier post asked how this is considered a disorder. So I wonder what the logic and feelings were when you just felt like not socializing anymore and getting depressed, and what the reply to that post said about similarities in it despite different upbringings and experiences. And if I do have it and relate to what you went through it'd explain things I didn't even realize about my behavior and choices towards socializing. Excuse me if my two previous posts were rushed and ingenuine, and put you off from carrying the conversation, I'm really trying and I am interested. I also got diagnosed with ADHD and OCD as a child if that helps.

Also to expound, I believe personality disorders can be caused by abnormal wiring in the brain and that you could be born with it but it will manifest later in life, like how some schizos only begin to develop symptoms in the 20s and 30s despite having a normal upbringing.

7546 isn't me either.

>>7547
To sum up why I feel this specific set of personality traits was from nature rather from nurture in my case:
First, I'm an extremely close match to the ones described in the DSM and ICD, with no factors missing or mismatching in those two. It just seems a lot more likely to me that such a close fit would happen if the cause were physical rather than environmental. The idea being that the environment is more variable, malleable and unlikely to give consistent results.

The fact that this well-delineated grouping of 'symptoms' reoccurs enough for it to become a diagnosis is a strong indication to me that it's something physical. I have some background in biology, and when studying genetic disorders this kind of pattern shows over and over: some single translation protein gets fucked up somewhere, the signal it was supposed to send is lost and it all cascades through the signaling pathway to produce an array of seemingly unrelated symptoms that nonetheless have a single discrete (or close to it) physical cause. My thinking is that it just happens that in this case the symptoms all happen inside the brain and are a little fuzzier and more well-hidden than something like, say, epilepsy.

Second, I was an extremely normal boy in a normal upbringing before the (rather pronounced) onset of it around age 11-13. I had no trauma, I had nothing bad happen to me, no accidents, nothing. It just happened by itself with no apparent prompting. It has also not once wavered and my preferences haven't given any sign of shifting in the near 20 years since.


Again, this is just my perspective and I have no hard evidence. I'm also not denying that in other people's cases the environment may have a greater impact: human beings aren't isolated systems, and it's not predictable how some trauma or how you were raised will interact with a developing physical brain chemistry disorder: things are rarely as clear cut as my case apparently is when it comes to mental development and issues.
Even if I'm right and it is actually a physical 'disorder' in the way I'm thinking, I have to imagine it would also fully possible to arrive at the same or very similar 'symptoms' through a separate path even if you don't have it.


>when you just felt like not socializing anymore and getting depressed
I should address this, because I think it's an important distinction. I didn't become depressed or even sad when I lost the will to socialize. I went on just fine through middle school and high school for a good 6 years, barely participating in school social life, until I went into university. There, the social isolation and lack of drive caused actual practical problems. I was failing my classes, my future looked bleak, and THAT caused depression. If I missed a class (which I often did) I couldn't ask anyone for help, because I didn't know anyone and didn't want to anyway.
Mainly it was the lack of drive. I think most university students, when they see a looming deadline, will get anxious. I just felt nothing, so I did nothing, so I dropped out, so I had no good prospects, so the future was looking worse and worse. It would've been extremely easy to fall into the stereotypical longer term NEET life of relying on your parents but by luck I managed to pull myself out after only about a year.

If I had been born some kind of trust fund baby and knew I would never have to work in my life I would have continued coasting through life just fine and happy, never gotten depressed, and never attempted suicide.


>>7546
Well, you're not exactly wrong, but you're missing my point. What I'm saying is that I think there's a specific bodily cause of some sort that generally gives rise to this particular set of personality traits. I could rephrase that into something like 'personality traits X Y and Z that are associated with SPD made my life a lot harder', but you get my meaning.

>>7552
I read your post when it was posted and come back to it intermittently but I don't know how to respond, what the fuck I'm asking, wanting, reiterating what I've already said, stating what is already known, and answering my own questions. What else can be said about it, are you still here? If you had more to say or wish to do so do so but I wouldn't know what to specifically ask about unless it's of the mundane. If all those expressions fail I just want to know more.

The same could be said for something like autism but all the symptoms and behavior of SzPD seem to come from a "normal" state of mind, one that developed naturally in accordance to its environment where autism is an odd/broken mind from the get-go with no social factors influencing how it came to be. Can one acquire autism or have a delayed autism the same way one does schizophrenia? Of percentages of induced SzPD what would you say separates the real from the temporary or similar disorders that stem from depression, cultural isolation, anger, sensitivity, etc..

And there's also that it's not just the core behavior and symptoms to go off of but how it colors your world and what other mental illnesses you'll encumber that really determines if it's genuine or not, like autism's actual effects being more than single obsessions and memorization; that those core aspects seen from the outside are judged, and symptoms are obfuscated and defined by those external characteristics making what is true behavior hard to differentiate.

It's becoming psychologically harmful to care about this, like I want to fit into a box or need to be quantified like a statistic because I'm struggling to find an identity to replace my own which is slipping away and becoming too self-conscious. And also that I may find common ground among others like this even though it's superficial, some kind of cool club where in reality (if I have it) I know what it's like and has played a role in my misery. I can talk about (lack of) stimuli, what people think of me, and what I think they think of me on how I am as a person but I won't go there now. I ran out of steam writing this and jumped around editing it, I started over two months ago so I may have staircase wit.

>I didn't become depressed
I think I meant there to be a comma.

>>7901
Don't forget, it's okay to be you. There is no reason to care what others think about you. You don't need to live in a certain way.

>>7903
I think its pretty easy to forget that. I'm not the aforementioned anon, but shit is easy to fall into. when you believe its just better to be accepted your own independence. The crowd is a huge influence.

Shit I feel like half the people I'm close would abandon me if they knew anything about what I feel beyond a surface level

>>7904
Then those people are not worth your time and effort. Unless you have to deal with them, for example parents that let you live with them or co-workers that need to tolerate you somewhat. I do understand what you mean with the crowd, but group pressure, society, or however you want to call it, is always worth questioning. Should you give in or not? Is it necessary for you that they accept you? Do you gain something you need from that? How far do you relent? It may get lonely like that, but in my opinion it is better to be lonely alone than lonely among others that don't really know you.

>>7903
That's not the main point I was making. Regardless of if I should forgive myself or not for who I am and accept that there isn't a rulebook to have been properly human, I maybe could understand myself better if I know what SzPD is. Not that I'm privy to explaining away human behavior through quantification and materialism.

This video is interesting: https://youtube.com/watch?v=QjhB33SNJQc

I made a forum for schizoids as an experiment, come make some posts if that interests you:
https://schizoid.boards.net

I know about the chats and communities thread but I'd like people in THIS thread to see, and that one's mostly spam containment anyway.