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/t/ - Theories

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What if the game is just
Weird for the sake of weird?


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Yume Nikki is a prime example of "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"


that's the game fuckmunch, its't just a game


In my opinion this "cigar is just a cigar" but you can imagine so many things into it and this is what makes it so great. You feel like you know what is happening but you just cant put your finger on it. It fucks with your imagination.


I'm sure it is, but it's very interesting for me to read people's theories.


yes i like this theory but what if instead mado was raped


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Also, my friend thinks the same thing as the OP.

If the OP is my friend Jacob I'm going to laugh my ass off.


Kinda pointless since you posted an image that looks like it's an homage to LSD, meaning it has meaning. As a homage.

It all has meaning but we'll never know. Kikiyama probably made it to generate rumours and fan theories anyways. We'll never know for certain but it's fun to speculate. That means pretty much all theories are just interpretations and are all correct.


hm, i'm going to hijack this thread since i can't seem to post a thread of my own, ("request seems automated" etc..) and because i want to disagree itt



anyway what i want to disagree with is this kind of dismissive attitude of looking at this game as just solely "randum lol" and weird for the sake of weird. esp. when looking at what a lot of people call the "aztec" imagery


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firstly, its not aztec even, its more closely related to peruvian ("caracas") textile work. here is an example and a comparison. notice the major similarity is in that both figures appear to be holding a head. This figure is pretty common in peruvian weavings like this and is generally called a dream spirit, the head in his/her (this spirit is typically genderless) is the head of the sleeping /dreaming person themselves, and you would see it carrying your own head throughout dreams, nightmares or visions, a form of self awareness or existentialism in a unconscious state


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in response to the claim above that the "aztec rave monkey", firstly, yet again this is a highly peruvian influenced figure, just look at the Nazca line's spider monkey (img attached) which is peruvian, the resemblance is easy to see.
and i don't see this as an homage to LSD or drugs, but you are on to something in that it seems to represent a hallucinatory state, which can be achieved in peruvian religion through intense dreaming or visions, after these intense hallucinations something is usually learned about the dreamer's self, an existential or "epiphanical" (from'epiphany') moment


in response to the claim above about the "aztec rave monkey" *


typo, its actually "paracas" look it up if you're interested


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the point that i'm getting at here though is that the figures in the game (in both background and foreground) represent actually pretty meaningful ideas and are crucial to the overall "point" of the game, in other words, they are certainly not random, and the creator had full intention and knowledge when using them. They all seem to relate back to the theme of being guided through a dream which is a vision of yourself


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in these two figures you can easily see the resemblance to those in the door or nexus room. In the game they form a circular pattern around the doors and continue until meeting in the center. The importance of these in peruvian textiles is they are celestial beings (almost think of them as "angels". They exist in a separate existence and circle the earth, in a similar pattern as those in the game.


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a better view of one of these figures, with a stick/staff/whatever you want to call it similar to the ones the figures in the mural world are holding


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another common theme in peruvian art is vomiting. this image, while kind of bad quality, shows an example of "ritual vomiting" where the vomit is shown turning into a snake. vomiting like this is significant as it is seen as a way to expel toxins both literally and spiritually, it is purposefully induced. the toxins in the human body and the spiritual evil is manifested in vomit, which is shown as an evil spirit (snake) being forced to leave the body. In Yume Nikki this is an underlying theme as well, vomiting, and the meaning can be interpreted in the same way. In Madotsuki's nightmarish visions she is being led through a metaphor for vomiting, she is confronted with all of the evils and cruelties in her life, and in this world, in order to rid herself of them


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more vomiting, though more like a snake in this example


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in-game vomit scene (aztec video event)


also, in the first image i posted (a still from the eyeball world) the figure in the background is clearly vomiting a snake in the same way


Taking the similarities in imagery between yume nikki and peruvian art and applying them to the game, you get a more clear understanding of the intent of the game, the "meaning" in other words. The importance of the game lies in the dreams/visions themselves (obv..) as the title of the game implies, and the ending is less important, though it should make more sense in this interpretation. this game has heavy symbolism which tries to show the player the importance of facing your own sickness, be it through dreams, nightmares or your waking hours, dreams are a last connection to human nature and the peruvian understanding of this is more intellectual than any modern understanding of dreams.

the dreams mirror actual dreams in their perceived pointlessness and "randomness" but underneath that is the things you are most sensitive to and most afraid of, which of course are the things that are most important to realize and to face.


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Those're some pretty interesting comparisons. Definitely seems like it was intentional as well, with how similar some of them look.

In response to >>1050 though, I want to point out that what >>1021 meant by "LSD" was the game "LSD: Dream Emulator" rather than the drug. The style of the one in >>973 is kinda similar to some of the stuff in LSD (examples in the picture I included). I'd say there's a good chance LSD: Dream Emulator inspired Yume Nikki to some extent, based on some of the similarities both have, like the whole "dream exploration" concept or the noisy footsteps/tile sounds, so I could see some of these creatures being inspired both by LSD and Peruvian art.


oh dang, my bad. yeah, i should've known, i've heard about that game


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i looked up paracas to understand more of it and on wikipedia this is the image from a mantle they have

holy fucking hell

so that was an eye opener, gotta replay yume nikki with that in mind. it seems to just be that, mixed in with, well, dreams and the randomness of the human mind. INTERESTING HMMM


LSD isn't the only game that has those bizarre faces. They're the art of the guy who created it. He also did a few other games that are worth looking up. He has a youtube channel with most of his game's openings. There are more assymetrical faces that look closer to the things in Yume Nikki in that game where that guy loses his soul and he has to go to the island to get it back. His youtube page even has iphone applications to generate your own faces in his style.

I'll post it here later on.


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oh my god thank you


thanks. idk, maybe i still need to develop the ideas further



I just found this thread, and I would have to say go for it. I'm going to have to read into it as well. The similarities are uncanny.


Also I'd just like to add it's nice to see the peruvian stuff in Yume Nikki. It's a nice change from other games that use heaven and hell like symbolism, with angels and demons and shit.


The reason that theme gets old is because there's a plethora of ancient texts from various religions they could use and they choose the black and white good vs evil theme.

It's never a Tower of Babel thing.


Oh hey, a shit thread saved by holo!

Also, i must add ,about Yume Nikki being inspired by LSD dream emulator, that the abstract art in LSD, those faces, and even the logo make an "appearance" in yume nikki, while i can't take pictures, the faces in the infinite road in the dense woods


Closely ressemble to the faces from LSD http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a9/LSD_Coverart.png

I don't know, when i first played LSD, it shocked me to see how familiar those faces were.


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This Peruvian culture stuff is really interesting, but I can't find any information on it. What are the sources for this theory?



well, most of what i've written about comes from my own knowledge on the subject and from my major of American Indian Studies (emphasis on religion and language)

however i do have sources (books, mainly) for interest, further research etc

this book has one of the best explanations of the Nazca Lines significance i've ever read, and gets deep into ties to dreams and afterlives.


this book is pretty expansive, and has some sections on specifically paracas or Peruvian art, that are pretty "good reads"

This book is a simple folktale retelling, but there are underlying meanings which are pretty relevant and it can help you get an understanding of the culture


contains a collection of words and knowledge collected from Peruvian Incan modern day elders, storytellers and shamans, obviously this is relevant and touches on a lot of the ritual aspects, like the vomiting



this small description is interesting as well, see the last part about the textile's reference to birth and death


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peruvian anon here, acctually paracas was a tribe that was before the incas and the incas conquisted.

Fun Facts:

-they momified the dead people and warp them in mantles, the mantles

the mantles looked like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Paracas_Mantle.jpg

remenber those facesin the upper left?..


- the parakas made cranial trepanations to heal their people.
they belived that evil spirits where inside people's minds and (or cranium) so the spirit could be released

im sorry I can't give mor information, this is what I remenber from middle school




I Agree with you, anyone can come up with an idea based on how much a person knows the world, some members confused this simbols with aztec simbols.


I think this should be a whole article on some blog/whatever that people could refer to.


hey, yeah, that would be a great, if someone wanted to compile this info and sources, from myself and from others who posted in this thread feel free.
I am kind of busy lately, but there is certainly more to look into here



thanks for the knowledge and corrections, especially since its more directly a part of your history. anyone else with ideas / firsthand knowledge definitely should post itt, sourced or not.


holo can I have your sources? I want to read more about Paracas.



yeah sure, as I put in >>1161 this is a great source:

but also many books which are focused on the Inca (the tribe which succeeded Paracas) have whole sections on pre- Inca culture aka Paracas, see here http://www.amazon.com/Peruvian-Prehistory-Overview-Pre-Inca-Society/dp/0521275555

many of these books can be loaned from any library which has a copy through inter library loan (this is worldwide) or through amazon books


Dear Holo:

I have to say that, thanks to you, I see this game in a really fucking different point of view than before.
I used to see it so deep, but I didn't get what it was. And, after read this thread… god. I swear that it was like a 'Click' in my head.


Really, thank you, dude.


What if the creator just decided to put peruvian stuff into the game because it looks cool?


What if the writer of this >>1266 quoted post just wrote that because he though it sounded cool?
(don't even think of explaning you didn't, because then I'll say that you wrote the explanation because it sounded cool, too.)

The point I'm trying to make is that "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" is an interpretation that can be applied to anything, but it won't lead us anywhere, so is better to think about other explanations (if you want, that is)


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But even Kikiyama says that this game is not about anything in particular.


>There's no story or purpose in particular, it is a game of just walking around

Yeah, I totally throw myself out of the window every time I just go walking around.

Not to mention the empty room and the crazy dreams


love you all


As far as I understand this is machine translation, right? I believe that the story refers to the plot, like no storyline, no events, no restrictions, but not the contents, the MEANING, something like that





Well yeah. This is a fandom for an obscure Japanese game about a presumably underage girl, so I'd be surprised if it weren't full of perverts obsessing about rape.


he probably researched a bunch of things and wanted to subconsciously distribute this knowledge via the game in a fun way
to get us to research
to help us know pointless things that are cool



I don't think it's pointless at all


If s/he explained what it's all about it wouldn't be much fun would it?


That dream spirit in the eye-ball world is holding madotsuki's head upside down. Does that mean anything in particular?


*In peruvian folklore that is.



Because there's quite a bit of penis or vagina like imagery. It's also an obvious trauma to assign to her to explain her potential issues.

I would nearly go with the trans theory first.

Holo, your posts were really amazing and informative, I wouldn't quite know where to begin following it up.

I'd be really interested in what you think of the rest of the game outside of the obvious Peruvian influence given your view of the game as a whole must no doubt be much deeper than ours, having made that connection?

What do you think the other underlying themes are and the meaning behind the various iconic scenes?



Yeah, I won't doubt that the game contains sexual / phallic imagery, often in an odd or almost "evil" manner. This seems to me to be really Representative of actual sexual themes in dreams, here I can only speak from experience (hehhe) but sexual symbolism in dreams is often weird, inappropriate or implied in very odd, subconscious ways, which give the impression of some kind of abnormal sexual psychology, which in this games case, is being interpreted as a trauma or even rape.

As for my thoughts of other themes in the game, or the game as a whole, I have been again rethinking a lot about this game after a recent re-playthrough. The game does make, to some extent, a statement on the NEET lifestyle, and the extremes of human isolation, and not just in Japan, it's pretty universal.

Taking the ending into consideration, I would say it's quite a bitter outlook, but essentially; Your dreams are trying to tell you something, something which is encoded in all people, but has been forgotten because of the new way in which society works, in the major cities across the world, the depression of living in isolation is even greater, for you are living with so many opportunities but somehow are missing them all. Speaking again from experience, this is the most useless and painful existence you could fall into. When you enter a cycle of self seclusion, it's really really hard to break out, and you can lose whole years of possible experiences, loves, friends, everything. Your dreams in the game are trying to tell you you have to wake up, both mentally and quite literally, don't sit in your room dreaming, you will end up essentially dead (even if the suicide isn't literal as it is in the game).

If your dreams are distorted and cruel, it is an internal sign that you have to change something, and quite often, you yourself know exactly what you have to change.

But idk, maybe i'm just an idiot NEET haha


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You're not an idiot NEET at all. Actually, you're really smart and you have a lot of interesting knowledge, as well as you have thoughtful and well placed explanations. plus you're Holo so I love you


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I like you!

I'm gonna make a theory thread soon. Please read it!


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This is it but what is the tie between the paracas and YN ?

Did they have some sort of philosophy about dreams ?


They thought there were demons in your head which you exorcised via ritual. Thus, throwing up, and cranial deformations. They also practiced ritual sacrifice, which you could say Madotsuki also does with the denizens of her mind when she kills them to reach a goal- such as killing the big nose thing in the White Desert to reach Monoe's Tunnel.


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The debate over the purpose of trophy heads continues to this day, whether they were trophies of war or objects of ritual. Visual depictions of decapitations often associate the decapitators with weapons and military-like dress, but such garments could have been worn in purely ceremonial circumstances as well (DeLeonardis, 2000)


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This is exactly what I was searching for a long time now, well done Holo.
After some searching did I made some personal speculations about culture related imageries found in the game. I will start on the most obvious, and will be doing resurge and posing and more soon.
You start the game on what appears to be Paracas textile. Also a blocked pattern is a recurring theme on Paracas textile's and reminds me of Madotsuki´s shirt. Madotsuki has no cable/satellite t.v so I assume that she learned of these cultures from book´s present in her room. I thinkt hat is how these figures came to appear in here dreams. More are mostly visible in the lowest levels of the dream world. Maybe a sign that they are less random than deeper levels?


The Nazca lines are only clearly visible from bird’s eye view, just like the images in Graffiti world.
The also bare resembles like the monkey tail and the 2 hands one has 3 fingers and the other 5.


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hands one has 4 fingers and the other 5.* Sorry it is midnight and I need some sleep.


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The Paraca like images found in Yume nikki is mostly displaced on the floor, like the flouting backgrounds.
The textile ware however of great importance and therefore likely not used as a carpet or flour display. This suggests that Kikyama did not fully understand the subject and was more interested in the art and images of the cutler rather than its lifestyle. Making any theories about this and Yume Nikki probably incorrect, and keep in mind that there is already almost noting known about the lifestyle of this culture.
My conclusion so far: Kikiyama was inspired by the mystery of this culture and used its art not knowing there true purpose or meaning. He made things up and made his own interpretations.
I will try to get more in Kikiyama’s head, and hope so not to overanalyze.



That Japanese guy who updated the Yume Nikki wikia did a pretty good job of comparing real life artifacts and even artwork with the things in Yume Nikki. THere's a big thread on yume nikki general. I just felt like I had to plug it.

I'm pretty sure the cat was supposed to be based on a figure of speech, I'll have to look through the wikia posts again to find it.


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>mantles, the mantles, the mantles


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The common way of explanation, especially if it's somewhat deviant, is through references which often are mundane in one way or another.

All these theories are but different sides of the same coin. The world differs throughout both time and space and a lot of occurances we call "colorful" take place everywhere all the time. Variating these aspects is merely a means to elude the flaws of human nature.
Just look at the fingers on your hand and you have Yume Nikki's meta level in a nutshell.

Any kind of disagreement is like arguing over which color is best for a chair which is going on the fire in five minutes.

I am not going to be any more "inhuman" than anyone else in creating similarities to the Big Bang in which whence everything started it slowly drifts apart finitely eventually to get fused together into the entity from which it once started.
If an answer to this "game" even exists it's the most primal, simple of epiphanies. Existing in the borderland where the deepest of depths finally tips over into the most simplistic of trivialities.

The best way I can tie all the above together is to simply ask you to look at your own hand. If your brain is working you'll hopefully stumble across a relevant solution in due time.

Also, Holo sounds like a twat.



>Hi, I try to sound deep saying all the theories in a game where you take your own conclusion are stupid. Look how deep I am that I saw more than you all and I got the true answer; just look at your hand, there is.



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then that means that mado was raped??



Ah, thank you very much for proving my point. Almost ironically coincidental I'd have to say.



Yerp. Fisted brutally, and against her will. Look at your hand, that was the weapon used.



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Still tryin' to sound 2deep4u, son?

Look at your hand.



Okay. I guess I posted on the wrong board. Or even on the wrong site.
I have to admit I honestly thought this board was for Yume Nikki theories instead of trolling.
You may delete my entries if I have upset you. Sorry.


Hmm I happen to agree with you, and I think we are saying a lot of the same things, just in different ways. I think my understanding of the game comes down to literally the same thing as what you said, and that it is a personal meaning, the "point" of the game coming not from the symbolism I pointed out, but the human implications they convey and make me feel, call me a twat all you want (which idfk why you did anyway) but a "simple epiphany" is a valuable thing


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>a post that's purportedly about how the deepest of the deep can be explained with the simplest of the simple is a long, poetic rant that essentially amounts to nothing of relevance


holo, thanks for the book recommendations! I'm a biochem/ecology guy but I love reading about the myths and beliefs, psychology etc. of indigenous cultures of the Americas. Good YN theories too!


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