No.1353
I haven't really seen anyone doing so in the recent times, so I thought I'd share some ideas from my experience playing it. It's been a while since I've played YN at this stage, so my memory may be fuzzy, but I did a little research earlier today.
I don't think there's any one thing going on in YN I think in general it explores feelings of alienation and that possible transgender themes are a classic way of doing that. I think the game does have meaning, as shown in the other thread and Holo's knowledge on the Peruvian themes was really interesting. I might touch on other theories I have and how they relate to this.
I think I'll start off by dealing with my theory of what Number World represents.
I believe Numbers World is meant to be a hospital. The beds, the cold, clinical atmosphere, the scary looking cabinets, etc. I think numbers are a good way of expressing a kind of arbitrary, cold distance and I think people who are afraid of hospitals often associate them with such things; or of hospitals and asylums of old which were truly terrifying places. I'm reminded a bit of the Throbbing Gristle track "Hamburger Lady" based off a rather disturbing piece of mail art. Numbers World is one of the scariest areas, because hospitals can be scary.
But hospitals can also be a nice experience in some ways when you're young - the doctors are friendly to you, they have children's play areas and jelly & ice cream. I think this is where the apparent juxtaposition comes from here, and the design of Numbers World reminds me a bit of some children's wards I've seen. There's something friendly despite the frightening nature of a hospital, but there's something abstract and disturbing about that in of itself.
Going back to the Numbers themselves; I think their presence plays up the "mad science" element that may figure into some people's fear of hospitals - but there are so many numbers associated with hospitals, in dosages, bed numbers, codes, costs/bills etc. not to mention counting down the days until you're released; there's a prison like feel to Numbers World as well, with the "clang" background music.
Now, I want to address how Numbers World relates to the transgender theory, starting with this picture of the "stabbing room".
No.1354
The "eye" creatures to me remind me a bit of red blood cells. They also look a bit like the eyes in the evil looking vaginas from the infinite road - more on that later.
The fact that you have to clear a path through them to find a certain object is interesting to me; it's like you're cutting away at some sort of flesh - i.e. this room represents some sort of surgery.
The bizarre object you find after this is particularly interesting, as it's one of those things that doesn't quite look like anything, except some sort of face.
To me, that stub looks quite penile - particularly like a penis mid sexual reassignment/assertion. The "eyes" looked like exposed breast tissue to me(receiving implants). Because of the psychadelic nature of YN it's probably not worth looking too much into colour, but the blue could signify being "out cold".
Looking at it this way, the red balls could testicles which are a purplish colour out of the sack; the eyes play into a more general theme I may deal with later. In terms of transgender issues - there's a number of issues with blood, if my "blood cells" theory is correct, there can be issues of clotting, and if testosterone is too low, it can make it hard for red blood cells to form.
If they represent ovaries - then it may be due to the fact that even undergoing sexual reassignment, you won't have any, so you're cutting through any delusions of that.
Note that there's a number of instances where "faces" and sexual imagery are connected. We have a phallic like object with a face, followed by "the" Face, those creepy space vaginas in the endless walk, etc.
Note as well that the bugged out eyes and "beak" like nose somewhat resemble a Toriningen.
No.1355
>>1354One common feature of the Toriningen in transgender theories is that they might represent "real" girls. The mouth, the face, is how people express themselves the most, through expression and voice.
If she were to be a trans-girl, she would view herself as being "defined" by her penis, as opposed to being defined by her own personal expression. Transition for her would mean moving the "Extruding" part of her from her crotch to her mouth.
I believe the mouth imagery in this regard may relate to the Peruvian imagery from the other thread - and how vomiting was used to expel demons and the like.
A simpler solution for the Toriningen is that they represent other transwomen, the most notable things about them being their "Beaks", it could be representing her fear of being seen that way, and she may feel alienated from others like her for that reason.
I'll deal with the symbolism of mouths(and the Toriningen) a bit more later, and it'll hopefully make a bit more sense then.
For now, back to Numbers World.
No.1356
As I stated, Numbers World to me represents what hospitals might look like to someone afraid of them.
So if Madotsuki is transgendered - she may have a fear of hospitals, fear of surgery. I think that the different sub-areas may represent different possibilities too. From the "happy" imagery on the walls which I linked to children(though they are also very similar to the Paracas robes in the other thread). It's possible something happened to her in a hospital when she was younger - for example if she was born intersexed and "corrected"(I believe much of what I'm saying applies to that too, and is equally likely).
If anyone's read The Sandman, you may remember the trans character from "A Game of You", Wanda. Neil Gaiman said he had the idea to put in a transgendered character, after he had met "One of the most beautiful women" he'd ever scene, who "Happened to be a transsexual". Wanda wasn't the idealised perfectly passing trans of course, which made her more sympathetic in some ways.
Given the Sandman being about dreams, and one of the most well known pieces of modern western media with regards that subject matter, I find it possible kikiyama may have read it at some point. It would be interesting to actually go into detail about this and see if you could find any similarities, but for now I want to leave this panel with you.
Next to the hospital beds, there is a way into "Hell", where we find Ghost Madotsuki. I think this is one of the worries she has about surgery. If we look at it this way - the stabbing room's outcome was somewhat of an "Angry Inch" sort of effect, and the room with Kyu Kyu Kun and the Face(again - stabbing something to gain access - representing surgery), which also looks a bit like genitalia being operated on, could represent more general fears of surgery - it's just plain icky in general, or the fear of being easier to rape after surgery(I'll be going into fears regarding gender in general too).
Finally, we're off Numbers World into more general stuff!
(Regarding A Game of You, someone made another connection, albeit not as seriously -
http://yubishines.tumblr.com/post/10626586062 I do believe that it's possible or even probable Kikiyama would have read something like the Sandman as it's the "classic" Dream horror)
No.1357
There's a wealth of sexual-like imagery in Yume Nikki that's been pointed out several times. Even if the transgender theory is true, it could just be that they're there because dreams have that shit.
The entrance to the White Desert has a whole load of knobs on the wall, for example, and some very testicle like objects dancing around. Someone suggested that the transition from the "Boyish" Famicom world to the White Desert could represent some sort of transition; the White Desert also representing a more depressing period of her life in general.
The floating alien vaginas in the Infinite Road are particularly of note. Those sort of eyes are used a few places including in the Stabbing room. Also note how the one on the far right looks a lot like the Face - it has the exact same sort of Fish mouth.
The fact that this is on an endless walk could represent the constant thought and focus on her sex, the seemingly endless wait through transition, or that real, functioning reproductive organs as are as of yet, unattainable no matter how hard she chases.
With Madotsuki, however, being something of a recluse(or at least it's suggested as such) we should assume her real issues are social, and we should look at how possible gender or sex issues might figure into that.
No.1358
>>1357In particular, and to try and finish off the sexual aspects so I can move on, I mentioned already the symbolism of mouths early, and seemingly being likened to sexual organs in a number of places. This image being the most famous and blatant.
This has been associated with pregnancy - and maybe it is, perhaps Madotsuki feels threatened by and wishes ill on those who can reproduce, this would fit quite well . But it could just be a general fear of how she's seen by others due to her sexual status, and possible fear of violence as a result.
"Mouths" to me in Yume Nikki represent some kind of expression. It's of note that she never speaks in the game, nor does anyone else, except when she refuses to leave her room. Going with the Peruvian idea, mouths are also important - just like eyes(also featured in this image) are the Window(Madotsuki) to the soul, mouths can be seen of ejecting what's there too, which could be bad (spirits) or just general expression of one's self.
A fear of expressing one's self - or more aptly, communicating with one others could figure into the frightening nature of mouths, eyes and faces in Yume Nikki, though somewhat contrasting with the more friendly Paracas/Nazcan style faces which are trying to guide her through this.
No.1359
>>1358Now, here's where I'm getting to the meat of the theory.
Some of the most notable mouths are these guys from Mural World. These are what give you the various hair effects - hair being an important form of self expression, and one particularly important for trans people.
They give you long hair, blonde hair and poop hair.
Long and blonde hair being more idealised, and poop hair perhaps representing her own lack of self confidence in her appearance. If she's a Hikikomori especially she might not take care of her appearance. She finds it somehow daunting in the same way she finds dealing with other people daunting - after all, changing your appearance is a form of expression, communication with others, potentially.
While I'm finishing up on mouths - of course one of the most important things being transgendered is having the voice appropriate for your gender. While what we hear of Madotsuki's voice is very feminine sounding, she could as of yet be pre-pubescent, or forcing it severely and unable to keep it up in a conversation. Another reason why she doesn't speak or have any other vocal effects in the game.
No.1360
>>1359Now, on the subject of hair and the like, we're getting onto the most important bit: Gender Expression.
Note how sexual imagery is shown as been as somewhat threatening - but so too is not only sex - but gender, and I think that's what's important here. The Toriningen for example, seem to be dressed as stereotypical preppy females.
Hold that thought while I talk about hair again.
Long hair is generally viewed as more feminine(especially so in ancient Peruvian culture where it was one of the only things distinguishing male and female in works of art, if we're getting into that), and blonde hair moreso - it's particularly specials for Asians who are not naturally blonde and tend to look very doll-like with it.
For this reason, I am thinking Poniko may, as others have suggested, represent who Madotsuki really seems herself as. Instead of her mousy dark hair, she wants to bright blonde hair. She not only identifies as female, but with femininity - this is why Poniko resides in a sea of pink. Wading through this sea represents the long journey to becoming feminine that even may real girls have to go through.
(My one issue with this is that technically, Madotsuki is wearing pink so in some ways more feminine than Poniko, but maybe the alternate clothes represent potentially having a variety of dresses, whereas Madotsuki only has what she has on - alternately it's simply what real life Poniko happened to wear and Madotsuki looks up to her as a "real" and therefore more feminine girl).
Poniko's eyes are hard to explain - either they're open, implying Madotsuki might be happier and more open as her - or they're crying, implying that she's isolated herself by transitioning in this sea of femininity. Uboa, again, plays nicely in the presentation of sexualised or gendered things being displayed as somehow threatening.
What's of note with Uboa is *where he takes you* as well.
No.1361
So let's say Madotsuki is a transgirl who goes through with everything; bleaches her hair, takes her hormones, maybe even gets surgery; where would she be?
This part is addressing the fears of actually being female that may prevent one from becoming themselves.
Hands are another constant theme in Yume Nikki. Of course, it's easy to say body parts are in general(which would make sense if someone was so focused on their body in general, or just for anything dream related) but what's of note is that the hands seem to be *doing*.
The area where Uboa takes you to, in particular, has some very notable groping activity. Since uboa is *technically* actually a relatively rare event you wouldn't likely find on your own, I'm not sure how much importance I want to assign to it, but then again so is Kyukyu-kun and a lot of interesting stuff.
Luckily, there are instances of hands being presented as somewhat odd or creepy looking - that famous staircase for example. There is a fear of being groped or abused as a female that may not have been there as a male, and much of the imagery may represent this rather than an outright past experience with rape.
Eyes are also very common - being stared at, observed, held to a greater visual standard them before. While this was taken to mean "stalking", it has a far greater meaning for a transgirl, or even a girl. People look at you, judge you on your appearance, and this in of itself can be quite frightening.
No.1362
>>1361Focusing on gender representations more more;
I did a bit of reading up on Women in Paracas/Nazcan culture, and it's hard to find much info. A few things I did find though, is that men and women tended to be depicted as physically similar aside from hair and clothing(which would be associated with a particular role). Many women wore bird-patterned dresses. Much like in modern society, Long hair was typically associated with women.
What's pretty interesting though, is that some women tended to have interesting tattoos on their genitle area:
http://people.umass.edu/proulx/online_pubs/Nasca_Overview_Zurich.pdfNote the figurine on Page 8, which has a very Yume Nikki-esque Face painted on the crotch. The eyes remind me a bit of those on the Infinite road, and vaginas are regularly associated with the "Face" event.
Going back to the Toriningen; it does sometimes seem like they might be used to represent "real", more social girls, like their inaccessible party amongst other things, and how they chase you down and "exclude" you from their area.
What's of note is that most of the identifiable/faced humanoid characters in YN seem to be female - Poniko, the Toriningen, Monoko & Monoe - this might be symbolism that she has always related to girls more. The only humanoid male I can think of right now(that isn't roadkill) is Seecom Masada, who is(in more ways than one) a little more alien and removed. And there are no active *human* males as far as I can remember(well, assuming Masada-sensei isn't a human).
I think with themes of isolation; sexual imagery/possible surgery, and a certain focus on femininity, a transgender subtext is very likely. Some of the symbolism just seems to fit best this way - particularly Poniko and the Sea of Pink.
There's probably more I'll think of lately, I'm looking to develop this as a theory as I believe it's the one thing in YN which hasn't gotten enough attention. If anyone else has any suggestions, please let me know. For now I hope you enjoyed reading it; I know it was dragged out a bit but I don't think it went as much out on a limb as other theories.
No.1376
Kinda bummed I put a lot of thought into this but nobody cares :/
No.1378
The problem it's harder to be technical with this stuff than it is with for example the Peruvian theory, but some more research might help.
This theory is compatible with the Peruvian stuff and most of Mt.Kiki's stuff. It does feel after assuming we knew all we could we are getting a bit closer to identifying certain themes at the very least.
No.1432
Ah, already on page 2 -_-
No.1443
I think it's a really good theory.
No.1509
I'm a bit late to the party, but I have to say, I really enjoyed reading this. It's really nice to see something about all of the phallic imagery and the like being acknowledged as something other than rape (though these days that's more of a joke than anything), and even having pretty plausible reasons for why they are what they are. You even explained the "stabbing room" which I always thought for the longest was just some weird easter egg. I don't think I'll be able to see them as anything but red blood cells anymore, haha.
I'm probably just grasping at straws here, but since you brought up Mado's pink shirt and how it's more feminine than Poniko's, what about Mado's trademark checkerboard symbol?
I'm also curious as to where Masada fits into your theory. Since he's pretty much -the- humanoid male of the game. There's also the odd way he backs away from Mado when she has the knife out. Do you think that may have something to do with the surgery you brought up? Funny enough, I was actually reminded of the his spaceship when I visited the cleaner hospitals in .Flow. They both have this sort of sterile feeling about them…
Anyway, good job on the theory hoping to see more! (and typed a lot more than I expected to…)
No.1535
I actually like this theory. Good work.
No.1539
if ya' wanna look into hands more, havin' big hands is generally a part of going through testosterone puberty.
I know I, as a trans girl, stare at my hands a lot. I got dainty-ass fuckin' hands cos' I didn't go through much testosterone puberty, but still not small enough. cis girls have hella small hands. and feet too.
can't make yo' hands and feet smaller. I'm like, a freakin'… size.. 9? size 9 US women's? that's big. I mean, most stores stock it, but it's the upper edge.
fuckin' hands…
No.1589
I'm MtF trans, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if Madotsuki was as well.
Like, how OP said, the Toriningen could represent genetically female women who ostracise Madotsuki for being trans.
It could also be an explanation for why she's a Hiki.
I used to have massive issues going outside, and would rely on my fiance to do everything for me, because I was so worried I'd be judged, or given weird looks.
Then there's the fact she uses both restrooms.
No.1592
>>1539you type like my girlfriend.
No.1652
>>1547That's not true - in general bone structure cannot change, at least not in the short term(people often shrink a bit when they get older).
Feet can and do change due to how much of the foot is actually muscle. Hands are largely muscle but I don't think female hand muscles are a different shape so they generally don't change much.
No.1666
well, that room was the only that ACTUALLY made me think TG theory could be real, else seems so naive and more related to "rape theory"…
All other disk with feet npc seems FEMALE, but the red ones seems male, look at the legs of them and you will know what i mean: while the others feature chubby toes and hairless legs these ones had hairy legs and hugly feet, killing them reveals a face which looks more like the "morning wood"
No.2164
I'd rather bump and continue this thread than post a new one because it has so many good leads in it. In the past, video games were somewhat considered a boy's activity, especially around the NES/Famicom era, though girls did play them. Furthermore, I've taken a notice to how bland Madotsuki's room is. There's no sign of femininity anywhere in it. It might be possible that the realization of her gender identity was recent and that she may be in denial of what compels her to put her hair into twin braids and wear skirts, though she's more unhappy without it, obviously.
No.2165
This guy kind of covers everything talked about in this thread, with his own take on it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVvERwIiNAI No.2174
What is this peruvian thing ongoing?
No.2175
>>2174Well, it's one of the most prominent theories because trans females continue to find the bizarre phalluses and womb imagery to be a sign of dysphoria when they're made aware. When presented the interpretations, it all seems to click into place for them. It hasn't been brought up because the theory has been covered so extensively there's barely room for further discussion, but a growing percentage believes in it. The reasons for discarding it would normally be to support another theory or simply anti-trans prejudice at this point, unless you can go through and pick all the overwhelming evidence apart bit by bit.
No.2177
wow.
