/og/ - Other Games

>>5367
>Killer Is Dead did indeed hurt his reputation
I don't understand why Killer is Dead has such a bad reputation, really. I found the gameplay less dreadful than No More Heroes, I loved its confident, stylish presentation and some gimmicks were fun.

I never played Shadows of the Damned but I imagine that it would be the worst of his work.

Nothing can beat Killer7 in terms originality though.
I'm a little worried that it might get involved in his next project (which is most likely No More Heroes 3, judging from some hints in Travis Strikes Back) Having all the games in the same timeline would bother me. I like my worldbuilding closed and clearly structured.

>>5370
No More Heroes's gameplay was fun mostly because of the motion controls and inventive level design gimmicks. If you played on a regular PS3 controller, it's kinda monotonous.

The bossfights were great, the story was creative and fun and well, it had it's owl deal of metalinguistic criticisms. It has substance, even though it sure isn't a DMC in mechanical depth or a Killer7 terms of narrative. It's indeed a simple, but great game.

Meanwhile Killer is Dead is… Ok.

The mechanics are deeper and the combat is satisfying. This, until you get the timing and start dodging everything, abusing the slowmo system. The game is really forgiving with the timing and it's really gamebreaking. You have tons of combat options, like shooting, but i felt like foi only use them when it's mandatory. While the mechanics have more depth, the gameplay design seems less coherent than NMH.

And then… We have the story. Killer7 had a confusing story? For sure, but this was really something that helped to build the atmosphere, and it wasn't meaningless: we had this slow but tense gameplay in a surreal plot context. And when you look at it: everything in Killer7 had a symbolic reason to be in there. Mostly for it's themes, worldbulding or character developing.

Killer is Dead looks more like a failed homage. The weird stuff is mostly bonkers and meaningless, gameplay is fast and this makes the entire dreamlike stuff less of a focus. The story is convoluted for no reason at all.

Suda51 didn't even write most of the game. He didn't even direct it. But, like any Grasshopper game post NMH:Suda slapped his name on it and hoped for his fans to buy it.

It is by no means a bad game, but sure isn't comparable to The Silver Case, Flower Sun and Rain Killer7 or any other earlier Suda51 game.

>>5373
That does leave me wondering something important though. Do you think Suda is actually a hack?

I love his works a lot too, but that whole "taking credit for other people's works" thing feels a bit iffy. Grasshopper games in general feel like poor imitations of his own works. They're rather senselessly random and silly, like how NMH was and how people will gloss over the symbolism and deeper meanings of Killer7 because of "OMG A GIMP GUY!!!1!1 LOL SO RANDOM JAPANESE GAME XDDD". The best Grasshopper game in my opinion was Lollipop Chainsaw, and I guess that's because there's no apparent attempt made to emulate his works. That's not saying it's amazing or anything, but it's better than Killer Is Dead and the overhyped and monotonous Let It Die, which really overstays its welcome. Pretty disappointing too, since this was meant to be "Suda51's Dark Souls", but ends up a petty critique of pay-to-win games with little other story and repetitive gameplay.

NMH really feels like the black sheep of his work for how light-hearted it is when compared to most of his other stuff. It's also his most popular work, and I can't help but feel that he might've made it exactly to be that way, because all his other games are fairly niche. NMH was primarily a satire however, but again, most people ignore that fact because of the cool guy with a lightsaber (and don't realize he's meant to be a parody of them).

Suda finally returned with TSA, but that feels… eh. It's like a sellout game of some sort. Like NMH was, but worse. It feels like Suda just really wanted Travis in Smash. Of course, there's all the little callbacks and references for fans to get, but then you've got the indie game tie ins for publicity and a teased crossover with Hotline Miami to boot. And looking at the games plot is depressing. It feels like Suda mostly venting his frustrations at people who don't understand his work and at the game industry in general. The writing is definitely his, and so are Travis' disclosures, and Dr. Juvenile is just his self insert who has to become a martyr for the sake of the people's happiness. The worrying part is that we really don't know Suda's experiences all that well, so most of this could be extremely petty. I do have to wonder what the EA CEO guy did to him to make a cameo in the game as an absolute douche bag who beats up Suda's self insert and steals her game.

>>5374

I feel like he just wanted to stop directing. Looking through the development of Killer7, Mikami himself forced Suda to write 100% of the game's scenario and he was kinda unconfortable in doing that (even though he did write the whole plot).

I feel like No More Heroes 2, Killer Is Dead and maybe even Lolipop Chainsaw, which is my favorite non SUDA Grasshopper game (still haven'played Contact though), were attempts in passing his title to his co-workers so that he can focus on being a CEO.

When i think about it, the only major stuff he did between Travis Strikes Again and No More Heroes was Liberation Maiden (which is pretty underrated and i would recommend it anytime if you like arcade stuff). He was stepping away from his director's chair and even Killer Is Dead, which is a throwback to the old Kill The Past games, wasn't really a Suda game when you think about it.

So, i wouldn't call him a hack. I think that, since he directs since the PS1 era, he just wanted to focus in growing Grasshopper as the administrator, not as a dev.

NMH may be more lighthearted, but it's themes were really consistent. It was a pretty good and blod parody of action games and the overall industry. It had this kind of geniality and eccentric choices which i feel that most later Grasshopper games lack.

About Let It Die: it was directed by the same guy that did Killer Is Dead. Not really a very Suda game and some of it's problems are similar to Killer Is Dead's. Lack of interesting themes, repetitiveness… It's a charmy game and i liked it, but sure has lots of wasted potential.

About TSA: i think it's a game made for the Grasshopper fans and the marketing was done wrong. I know the development originally was meant to be a No More Heroes and Devolver crossover but it really derailed because of budget issues. But the problem is: the marketing was done thinking about this concept, not about what the game really is about.

I think the game is about Grasshopper and it's fans. The optional visual novel segments feature lots of old Suda characters like Kusabi, Kamui and Sumio. It's plenty of references to his older work.

Then, we have this Travis/player symbolism, about the first boss being the hero of his favorite game and how the sequel of the boss's game will never launch, we have tons of parallels to Grasshopper's history…

It isn't a game that will resonate a lot with people outside of his hardcore fanbase because of that: it has a really narrow target audience. It's a mix of nostalgia with an analysis of Suda51's career and fanbase. About that EA guy: Shadows of the Damned was meant to be a more classic survival horror experience, without all the shooting and stuff. EA forced Suda to make the game a Resident Evil 4 clone with sex jokes, and he left development at a certain point because of this creative clash. The original scenario for Shadows of the Damned was released as a manga called "Kuriyami Dance" if you want to check it out, a fan translation was released this year.

I am the anon that posted >>5375

Just continuing my text. Reached the character limit.

Overall, i think Travis Strikes Again is the worst Suda game, but i don't think it's a bad game: the gameplay is pretty satisfying at the hardest difficulty (normal is really braindead, i do believe the game is kinda unbalanced), the level design was kinda eh sometimes but had it's sparks of creativity and the bossfights were really fun. Even though the story was really written to appeal to a niche audience, i do think it works fine. I could sure use a better soundtrack, but the graphics were cool enough for me. Loved Travis's redesign. And the main thing: it has lot's of bold decisions, like the inclusion of FMVs, pixel art, the text adventure segments, the trailer itself, reading the old videogame magazines… Damn, that's some classic Suda51 stuff, experimenting with different styles to achieve the desired feeling, and i do think it nailed the feeling of nostalgia very well. Maybe it's not a great game for those that haven't played most of his main games, but i do think it's an important game that shows that he's going to the Yoko Taro direction: keeping his originality and personal mark in his games, but still polishing them more when possible to really make his classic. The next Grasshopper game will probably have a better budget, so: if he keeps directing and continues to stay true to his style, i do think he may get on Killer7 and No More Heroes' level of quality. In my opinion: when he dies, Grasshopper'll probably just close the doors. Grasshopper really depends on his direction.

By the way, Travis Strikes Again was inspired by the indie market, which really made Suda interested in making an indie game (that is why TSA exists). It's funny to see how some japanese cult videogame directors are being inspired by this wave of games. Deadly Premonition's SWERY only came back to the industry because of indie games too. He just released The Missing and i'm actually quite surprised to see that a SWERY indie game resonated that well with the indie audience.

>>5376
The Missing hit a bit of a Goldilock Zone of the western indie game community, I'd argue (LGBT-rep kind of, dealings with mental illness and pop culture, overall the whole american scenery and feeling and physical pain and self harm being huge topics)
I'm not saying he sold out, I don't think SWERY is the kind of guy who thinks about what sells and what doesn't. A bit of luck and success. He deserves it.

Thinking about the western indie scene is kind of frustrating. (Faux-)Originality and art styles and self publishing and what not are praised but it feels as if every game still holds the inherent need to sell well or die forever.
Katana Zero comes to mind.

Going back to Goichi, I assume most know by now that No More Heroes 3 is a thing and it leaves me wondering, why does no one care about 2? I hardly hear about it.

Looking at the wikipedia site, two things stand out:
1: The reviews are good.
2: A quote from an interview with Suda saying he never wanted to make a sequel but oh, there was a demand.
Is it on par with 1 or more like TSA, some extra goodness for the loyal fans?

>>5385
Indeed SWERY deserves it. Deadly Premonition had tons of good ideas and even thought it really was a Twin Peaks clone storywise, the story changes a lot in the middle and becomes something really unique in the end. Deadly Premonition's final chapters were a blast.

D4 was also really underrated. I don't mean to say his games are perfect, far from it actually. But he has lots of potential and i can't wait for The Good Life.

Now, talking about Suda again… No More Heroes 2 is a pretty good game, but it misses a lot the point of the first one.

Part of the appeal of the first game for me was how the over the top stuff had a contrast with the grounded setting. Travis' design is literally this concept: he is a regular guy that tries to act all cool with a jacket but it's really visible that he's just some random otaku guy.

No More Heroes 2 goes full bonkers and studio Trigger style, and forgets one of the foundations of the first game. It also makes NMH1's true ending non canon, which is a very controversial decision. The mechanics are better, but they removed the open-world and well: even though it wasn't perfect, it was indeed a key element in the original game.

Although all of these are important things, i think the worst part is the story: while No More Heroes 1 was really ironic, but dark… Somehow, in 2, they decided to make Travis more like a hero. It has lots of drama, epic build-ups and what annoyed me the most: this "revenge" theme that was really the central aspect of the plot. Which even though i do think it was really well done, it seems out of place to the original game's overall themes.

It's a great game and can easily recommend it to any NMH1 fan, but i don't think it's a perfect sequel. It's no Devil May Cry 5, that's for sure.

>>5367
I've finally collected enough bottle caps to purchase 25th Ward and judging from the 2h I played so far, it's all I would ever want from a videogame.
Everything I could ever wish for is there, pain and your average perversion. Nach mir die Sinnflut.
It originally came out in the same year as Killer7 and a lot of parallels are very obvious.

I hope at some point he gets the rights for the Human Entertainment games and rereleases them. Or a translation patch or something.

>>5412
I really hope you are patient enough to get the true ending of this game. It's awesome as hell.

25th is my third favorite Suda game at this point. It's the only game i've ever seen that talks about political fiction in a way that works as good as a book (maybe because it's a VN to be honest). I do feel they gave less focus to the characters and tried to talk more about the whole 25th Ward society. I do feel the true protagonist of the game is actually the whole 25th Ward.

By the way, the soundtrack is amazing, please listen to my favorite OST, you won't regret it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip3_Lt4eax8

So, I really want to check suda's games, but I'm not entirely sure where to start. What would you guys recommend, or in what order should I play them? For the record, I don't have problems with playing "boring" games (if there's any), or even untranslated. I'm just not sure how to get the most of them.

>>5417
I guess there are many good starting points. One of them sure is the No More Heroes franchise: it's pretty accessible, fun and confortable.

If you are more into complicated plots, political fiction, deep themes and such, i would recommend you to start in one of the Kill The Past games.

You can maybe try starting the Kill The Past franchise with Killer7, which is an alternate universe and it's pretty damn fun though it may start kinda weird at first. The story is amazing and i do believe it's almost a perfect game.

If you like it, you should play the canon order of the original KTP games: The Silver Case, Flower Sun and Rain and last but not least, The 25th Ward

If you are even more into narrative and VNs, you can just start with The Silver Case and go through the order i just mentioned. But still: don't miss Killer7, it's a blast!

>>5418
i'm still the guy who just answered, but i just remembered to tell you something too: both twilight and moonlight syndrome weren't translated but they are not THAAAAAT important to the overarching story

there's some symbolism related to these games and a returning character from Moonlight in Flower Sun and Rain, but aside from that: there isn't much to say about them, they are pretty separate

>>5419
>>5418
Thanks for the reply. I think I'll follow the original order, but I'm considering starting from killer7, as it seems to be pretty good.

Well, Deadly Premenition gets a sequel.
I know nothing except that it was just confirmed on a fucking Nintendo Direct.
It's about York, not Zach.

I'm excited but baffled. Is Swery involved? Isn't he busy as hell right now with The Good Life?

>>5420
You'll love Killer7 if you give it a honest chance. Don't drop at the start, it only gets better and better.

>>5422
Yeah, SWERY is involved. Apparently it was a stealth development or something, just like Deadly Premonition's Switch port.

Can't wait for it, right Zach?

Do you guys think I should finish Flower, Sun and rain, I kinda left the game on the 3rd-4th day (?) or something. The game has an interesting premise and a unique atmosphere but I didn't felt like the plot was going anywhere so I put it aside for a bit and didn't really came back. Thoughts?

>>5433
Try playing The Silver Case first. It has a strong relationship to it. Starting by FSR is kinda rough since you'll probably end up giving up because you don't care much about the universe and all of that. The game is also kinda ironic, has some really tiring parts to make fun of the player and etc…

By the way, the whole point of Flower Sun and Rain is exactly the plot going nowhere. It's funny. But, in my interpretation: there's some meaning to each day. The problem is: can't talk much about it without spoiling the story.

>>5433
I'm >>5434

You should play Killer7 first if you want the smoothest introduction to the Kill The Past universe really. It's an alternate universe spin-off, but it really shows what you can expect about this type of game in a much more fluid, action packed manner. These are some old bizarre puzzle adventure games(and Flower Sun and Rain, has some boring parts on purpose), so… They might be kinda tiring to play sometimes. If you finish Killer7 though, you'll probably be motivated to play the rest of it just for the sake of having similar experiences and knowing more about this bizarre universe.

I'm thinking about buying Deadly Premonition soon, i have a few questions.
Does the writting have actual un-ironic value, or is it just "so bad it's good"?
I heard it's very inspired by Twin Peaks, does it understand the underlying themes or just makes surface-level references and imitates the aesthetic?

>>5436

The latter, the killer is…heavily hinted at the moment you start the game and it gets heavy handed.

The surface story is absolutely stupid, but the character stories are brilliant, which I guess means it really did follow twin peaks closely.

>>5436
It's pretty good. The open-world is really creative even though it has flaws. The life sim aspects are well executed. As an adventure game, it's a blast. The survival horror parts suck hard though, but at least you can easily skip them by simply running from most enemies. The story is pretty good too.

>>5437

While i do agree SWERY has some bonker plot-twists, i do think they are appropriate to the story (mostly). But i can agree on that: the characters are the foundation of Deadly Premonition's story. After all, this isn't a story about Anna's serial murder case, it's a story about the characters.

Spoilers ahead, story discussion, don't click if you've never played Deadly Premonition.

Well, i do think the focus of the plot isn't really the whole serial murder case, but the duality of man. This is something that SWERY said in his notes about the game's development. It's about how people react to trauma and problems. For example: Thomas fights his gender dysphoria and intolerable love for Thomas by helping in the murders. George fights against his trauma and obsession by killing women and seeking the power of the red seeds. Kaysen is merely a metaphor, a demon which uses the people's own insecurities and traumas to dominate. Both he and the Red Tree represent evil.

Even though it may get weird, i think the meaning that everything has and the Cold War related things that happened in Greenvale (which reminded me of Naoki Urasawa's Monster lore a lot) kinda makes me think the story is pretty good. Even though it starts as a mere Twin Peaks The Videogame, it eventually becomes something of it's own.

Can't wait to see what will happen in Deadly Premonition 2. It's a pity that the best SWERY game for me, Dark Dreams Don't Die, will probably never have a follow up.

I am >>5439

Just complementing the spoilers part. If you've never played Deadly Premonition, don't read the following spoilers:

The best thing about the story for me is how York is able to deal with his trauma and focus on having a better live. This is, thematically, the most optimistic and best ending possible. He is able to fight against his own desires and traumas, thus becoming his true self. He becomes Zach, and abandons York, his coping mechanism, the "perfect cop", the strong, but very paranoid personality.

"At times we must purge things from this world because they should not exist. Even if it means losing someone that you love."

York purged his traumas. He purged York, his coping mechanism, which he shows a great deal of respect. He was able to fight against these things that "should not exists", even though he may go out of his confort zone.

SWERY is a pretty smart guy. Even though DP has some specific problems in narrative, it's pretty impressing for a low budget adventure game. Maybe, it's one of the best adventure game narratives of DP's generation.