I posted a thread just last night about a new fangame I started, anon
For some reason I still get emails and random discord invites for people to (lovingly) bitch me out about not expanding Nightmare Castle any further.
I think what happened was that everyone was bitching that there were too many shitty fangames that copied .flow too much or something back in 2012~2014, so not only did nobody want to be associated with that, they decided to just dump it all and move on wholesale. Even I did. Most of them are just kids even younger than me making stuff to sit at the cool kid's table, and YN fangames is no longer the cool kids table. It was suddenly more prestigious to bitch about how bad fangames are and jerk off to Misao or whatever flavour-of-the-week horror game was out at the time.
It came to a point where it got so stagnant that it finally croaked, with the scene being left mainly to ghosts who still toil away forever on games that stopped being real FGs a long time ago. A few of us got careers, had no time for it as we put it (and didn't care enough). Of course, a traditional FG is quite simplistic and fun for a veteran, so I hope the scene will re-populate with a few more games over the course of 2017.
S I A S
A really good piece of media is something that adds to the way that you think and enhances your life's experiences. That media incorporates itself to your, "pool of thought", which just means that when you're trying to be creative you might draw inspiration from it or when your thinking to yourself you might remissness about it, it's atmosphere, and the specific feelings it gave you(not every piece of media does this). After you're done experiencing that media, you might crave more of it which is where fan works come in. Fan works are really more like a supplement than something of substance, especially ones that fit the formula of the original really well. Are those fan works really giving you anything new? Obsessively looking for a copy that can fill the void the original left, means that you can't just move on. It would probably be better to expand your horizons and look for something new.
im waiting eternally for .flow & 2kki to be finished, especially since they feel the most "finished" and "complete package" out of them all
the 2kki devteam is still updating from time to time but they just need to do an update that's not QoL changes and finish the 2kki chapter
.flow is a weird example, it's one of the OG fangames but it's more like it's own thing, i really doubt this one will ever be properly finished though since lol_rust moved on to making other games, but as it stands right now it's still a good experience
I always wonder how much time these images costed to someone.
2 hours, because the original copy I was working with was accidentally lost, so in reality it was about 1 hour.
The joke album cover of the post took me like pratically 4 straight hours to make, most of the time just thinking for ideas and rendering shadow / outline effects because my PC is fucking shit.
I was playing LCD drem a few days ago and realized that I find it weird people don't like recolors and complete rehashes of YN. I mean the idea that every fangame is walking around and seeing things just like YN with nothing new. I see it differnetly. To me a typical fangame is just YN but with someone else's mind making the dreamscape. I don't see it as bad really because I love that kind of thing and it allows me to see what other people are doing. It doesn't bother me but then again I haven't played many fangames.
A while back I have a pretty good idea for a YN fangame and it wouldn't be just walking around and new art like the typical game I mentioned earlier. It'd be an exploration RPG hybrid similar to something like shadow of the colossus but with turn based jrpg battles. My issue is I've never made a game and suck at sprite art and everything else that you need to make a game. In general I'm not sure If I'd want to give time to even try to make it.
>>12180>I was playing LCD drem a few days ago and realized that I find it weird people don't like recolors and complete rehashes of YN.>It doesn't bother me but then again I haven't played many fangames.
Well mate, that's why.
Tell me once you have played around 60 exact clones and I'll believe you.
You can sort of break FGs up into three distinct eras, with the current one being a Dark Age:
Only Yume Nikki exists.
>Era 1 - 2kkis Ahoy
This is the era that had the most fangames by far. Yume 2kki and .flow popularized the idea of creating "romhack"-style Yume Nikki clones, which play the same and have a variety of different feels to them. It's one of the clumsier collections of tributes for sure, but the sheer amount going on at this time seemed to project the view of a very creative fanbase. Western and Eastern FGs all used RPG Maker 2k/3 exclusively.
>Era 2 - Schism Era
Western and Eastern FGs fork here. This comprises the period from early 2012 onward, where most Western FGs were trying to break away from the mado-copies and, increasingly, delivering the worlds. All versions of RM were in use for the games at this time, even in the Eastern fanbase—and all the most popular Western creators openly beat their chests about how different their 'different' FG was from others, mostly by virtue of sprite style or having dialogue and minor puzzles. Ib clone territory begins in the middle of this Era.
>Era 3 - Dissolution and Dark Age
Western FGs are pretty much FGs in name only at this point. Most of the most popular or at least well-known creators move on elsewhere entirely close to the middle of this era in 2015, and new blood all wants to make Ib clones because it's the same effort with none of the trappings of trying to imply a story without dialogue. The fanbase is still playing
FGs, but creator activity basically ceases with Outotsu Yume being one of the final nails in the coffin before the dark age. It's one of the most successful western FGs, but the lack of contributor attention assures the demise of this FG after a good 8 to 10 months.
Era 3 continues. Some creators making honest-to-god FGs are becoming active on long-dormant projects again, with the re-commencing of games like Iter Itineris and Wavyup's continued activity with the Korean translation projects and other goodies. Japanese FG output has dropped dramatically, but continues at a steady clip.
Maybe it's because I've been around here before playing every single fangame I have but I expect that from it. Even .flow and 2kki are the same exact thing only with a very slight difference to those games. Unless it directly involves Madotsuki or another character I imagine it'd be hard to make a fangame that doesn't follow the formula without it just turning into just a RPGmaker game.
The difference is that 2kki and .flow are there since 2006 and 2009 respectively, you can't blame them of being "yet another clone" because they were the very first clones. The problem with newer fangames being exact clones is that you've seen and played the same thing dozens of times before. It gets extremely repetitive. Find the speed effect, collect flying dildoes in the same woods/snow/industrial words; how can you find that pleasant after seeing that for more than 20 times? And the originality gets really diluted as you get sick of the same game mechanics yet again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again… (repeat ad nauseam).
People got sick of that because every single game had a snow world, a neon world, eyes everywhere; they got sick of it because it was the same thing with a different color palette. And you have to have some problems if you don't get sick of it; I wouldn't stand watching the same movie from different angles each time, for the very same reason people hated the endless eight.
What kinds of things would you guys like to see in a Yume Nikki fangame? How would one make a unique experience that wouldn't feel like the same old thing?
(I'm not making a game I'm just curious)
this may be a fringe case because i literally only played .flow and yume nikki, but here's my opinion on how they distinguished from each other
i don't even call .flow a "Yume Nikki" fangame.
.flow is it's own thing really, with the themes so detached from YN (the rusted enviroment, mechanical shit everywhere) and aside from the odd reference, really feels like it is it's own thing, while still mainting a sort of "same" gameplay, it fucking trumps on YN due to the level design which makes actual sense (the 4 maps by the Nexus were made first), even the "Pipes and Poles" or whatever name you can attribute to it has subtle clues in the way of pic related
2kki just feels like a Yume Nikki expansion pack, it's a hikki girl doing hikki things in hikki dreams
I've got a more interesting question than 'what makes a good fg', a question that's been asked by (well-meaning) noobs every six seconds.
Which of the following is worse:
-When the creator fills the game with cack-handed 'symbolism' and tries their very hardest to influence theories, basically outright telling the player how to feel about their game
-When the creator fills a wiki page on their unreleased 0.00 with more words than actual released games
have, filled to the brim with the same cack-handed explanation in verbal diarrhea format (http://yumenikkifg.wikia.com/wiki/MixiM
So we have option 1, which is bad writing that the player can't see directly but still perceives. And we have option 2, which is too much bad writing vomited all over the fg wiki or a tumblr post.
What are some actually good ways you other folks think can convey varying degrees of meaning without beating the player's head to a bloody mush in the process with MUH SCARY SYMBOLISM
1 is pretty much Yume Nikki and the OG fangames though since it's set in a dreamworld, i don't really know what you mean so you may need to rephrase that.
I remember that Rika clone… has the author actually released something real?>>12193
And for that very reason people is tired of 1 already.
>>12193>1 is YN
Not true. YN gave you a bunch of really ambiguous, nonsensical stuff which may or may not have been actual symbolism. It wasn't really all that heavy handed.
In my post I was referring solely to games which do it really poorly, like [MOD REMOVED]
I don't think people are tired of YN-faithful clones so much as they are tired of bad creators cramming sparse worlds with bad and edgy art and thinking of themselves as clever for it.
Yuque had a pretty good reception as FGs go, and so did Ultra Violet, so it's not like trad fgs don't work. You just have to be more creative than palette swapping .flow
I think the problem with some creators is that they are just really young…I mean what can you expect? The engine is easy enough for a kid. Literally.
That's also true. For most of them it's their first game, at that.
And all first games suck. All of them.
>>12191>fucking trumps on YN due to the level design which makes actual sense
I don't play a game about dreams for levels that 'make sense'
Not talking visuals, i'm talking effects and directions.
The game has subtle clues to where effects are instead of placing them randomly in a huge empty area.
pic not related
Re. Games having enormous wiki pages despite not even having 0.00'd:http://yumenikkifg.wikia.com/wiki/Einsamkeithttp://yumenikkifg.wikia.com/wiki/REalM:_Walk_Of_Soul
This is the reason there were 10 fgs released last year. Creators wasting their time making wiki page stuff for their game instead of making their game.
Not that creators shouldn't put stuff in their game's pages or edit things (I've changed, see!) but when it gets that obtrusive… well.
Is that really better though? Yume Nikki isn't an easter egg hunt. It's not banjo kazooie. Aimlessly going around and just happening across effects is an experience that was unique to Yume Nikki. Having no clues and only being able to feel around the dark room for any sign of something tangible was exciting. It made the world feel truly expansive. Why bother exploring every single knock and cranny feverishly, if you know where to find things based off clues. Clues make the game less about exploring and more about finding.
>>12201>The game is set to be released for PS4, PS VIta, PC and Mac.
Holy shit this just can't be real.
>According to Megie, multiple spin-offs and short games are planned in the future, at least after the first demo release.
What the fuck?
These devs sure are really fucking full of themselves.
Unity exports to all those platforms, so that's probably the basis for that declaration
the dev still needs to pay hefty sums of money to license the game and release it on PS4/PS Vita
like, if it's going to be free, why bother? besides it's not even a YN FG and it's on the wiki for YN FG's lol
Ah that's true. Well, I suppose it is the dev having a little bit of an inflated ego. Happens
I'll put it this way: I'm less offended by a creator with a huge ego who's actually released something, than a creator who jerks off to their own unreleased work
Because at least a creator who releases stuff has proven that level of dedication.
Post theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo52vhCS8DQ
After reading the wiki pages and looking back at all the average FG's that developers made, what's up with all the edgelord main protagonists with a 2deep4u past?
Like, holy shit everything nowadays seems like some ripoff of .flow (the one fangame that did edge right) where the main characters became hikki's cause they broke up with their boyfriend or some shit or they got raped
REalM for example, the MC is edgy as fuck and the effects are even more edgy, with "symbolism" everywhere.
The first fangame that got me the feeling of the regular edgelord RPGMaker Yume Nikki fangame protagonist was Nazi Nisshi
and it all gone downhill from the point the only thing i saw was western devs making edgelords for their games as well.
Everything seems like it has some kind of faux in your face symbolism and "traumatized" characters with a "deep layer of personality" and the only thing missing is a sticker saying "OC! DO NOT STEAL!"
If i want to play actual good edgy shit, i would rather play the games that lol_rust made (.flow, Kidan, Gidan, Milya), they're all edgy as fuck but they have substance and reasons for the edge so it doesn't feel like a Linkin Park song in video game form.
Can I talk about de-fangamed FGs for a moment?
Is it bad if I feel like de-fangaming stuff was just some dumb fad that everyone did because they couldn't figure out any other way to inject originality into their game?
Taking out some more successful and creative examples, let's talk about FLUX a bit. The game started out as an FG, and basically became an immediate laughingstock because it was hilariously uncreative and it looked and sounded really awful.
I recently played the teaser for the new version, because I was legit excited to see how far rin had come after all this time. I wound up pretty upset, because after all this time the creator hadn't learned much.
-Hides OG FLUX-tier bad pixel art with approximately 1.7 trillion overlays, so it's impossible to see anything
-Uncreative puzzles that insult the player's intelligence
I got to the part where the guy calls the phone and asks 'what do the red letters say', and then I said "I'm fucking done!"
De-fangaming FGs was a big fad because it was supposed to prove how creative the developer is, that they're so special they can take their bad fangame and turn it into a worse 'not a fangame anymore' game! Some folks just can't help copying other things beat-for-beat, apparently especially if the stuff they're copying is not appropriate for their medium.
Where the fuck is Doodle, Psiwolf, and Owl when you need them the most?
OP here, that's sorta of a thing i wanted to address in the post but i could not put the words around it.
I only see people making things that aren't really associated with YN but they call it a fangame nonetheless to get the (dead) YN crowd.
Then they de-fangame it so they can get wider audiences and not be limited by it's "fangame" label even though it wasn't really a fangame to begin with.
Honestly, whether .flow managed to handle the edge well or not is debatable. I personally feel like a few things are pretty forced, in the same way you claim westerns try too hard to force edge in their characters. And no, I don't hate .flow, I just think people overestimate it way too much.
Being fair, though, it's the second fangame ever so I can understand some of those things having their appeal at the start and how it went downhill from there, but it doesn't nullify the fact that some themes feel forced to be 2edgy4u.>>12213>Is it bad if I feel like de-fangaming stuff was just some dumb fad that everyone did because they couldn't figure out any other way to inject originality into their game?
I've always been critic about it. To me, it felt like they discarded away the yume nikki tag after getting all the fandom attention with it and put a new tag to get more bootlickers to suck their shit and so leech people from both fandoms. Way too dishonest, just start a new game if you can't think about something original for a FG.
Games that started out as actual FGs usually suffer the de-fangame curse: the developer had no trouble making the game when it was an FG, but de-fangaming it made the game suddenly impossible to develop but the dev strings along waiting fans anyway.
If it does come out, it's half-baked or sucks for some other reason, or dies very quickly from lack of direction (because de-fangaming an FG doesn't work)
See: Hell Diary
(development hell, then cancelled after 1 or 2 lackluster releases), The Other Line
(development hell), TLG
(development hell), Broken Bottles
The only games which handled the transition well were games that held onto the title even though they changed a few things. Like Me
. The game was a lot more interesting after M-256 realized she could do whatever she wanted with it, and she made a really strange game. A fun kinda strange.
Oh Realm has development and content, but it's only a "fangame" insofar as it has homages to Yume Nikki and features a nexus and effects. It's more of a puzzle-platformer and has an actual story that you need to piece together through playing. There's nothing you can download yet because it's in closed alpha. I don't think they're going to release it until it's finished. The last major revision came out less than a month ago for the alpha testers.
FLUX, I'm surprised no one mentioned it before given it started as a fangame.
I think the original Flux wasn't as bad as people say, I mean, looking at the fangames library nowdays it's hardly of the worst.
However I played the new version too, and I honestly liked that old 0.00 much more.
There are many things that piss me off:
>It dumps the player into some spooky place with no context, with tons of IRRELEVANT puzzles that make no sense.>Layers and layers of weird filters and overused transitions>While playing it I feel I'm taking an eye exam, it ABUSES darkness a lot, and abusing darkness in horror is a mistake you could expect from a newbie, Rindre's not one.>That fucking red screen.>Voice acting for every single thing happening that ends being weird.
The game punishes your eyes badly, the pistol is fucking useless and the chasers are cheap, it's anger fuel, and it's so damn short…but I can't complain much about it since it's a teaser.
The game would have been much better as a fangame.
>>12218>Would have been better as an FG
Ah, that's what I was getting at but I somehow forgot to mention it in the post.
Yeah, I thought the new teaser was even worse
than the original game because she wanted to copy P.T./silent hill without understanding that it can't really work in 2D. None of the elements fit together with RPG Maker 2003's chunky upscaled tiny graphics, it's like she wanted to make a movie but knows she'll get more attention points for making a game.
The original was mostly bad because it was embarrassingly small and featured looping worlds with no features pretty much exclusively. One of them didn't even have actual tiles iirc. still better than Hell Diary 0.00 though
Also something I would like to know, the extremely low stamina, you can't run more than 3 seconds, is the MC disabled or it's just a mistake?
What I don't get is why so many people make fg for attention. Kikiyama didn't make yn to get recognition, so if people are going to copy anything, it should be that.
Because it works, we're talking about these faggots right now.
Wanting attention isn't bad, but sacrificing integrity just to get it definitely is.
Making an FG to publish is an inherently attention-seeking thing, but the desire for attention isn't an issue if the game itself is honest with what it wants to be and the creator's intentions (as far as publication and development goes) are rooted more in the creation than in how many reblogs or fanart it gets. You never know who you might touch with your work.
That's a really idealistic way of looking at things. Attention seeking and valuing praise over integrity go hand in hand.
Nobody makes something meant for publication unless they want some attention for it. I can't think of a single reason why it wouldn't be at least a small part of the motive for making something available for others.
There's different degrees of transparency to how badly a creator wants attention, or whether they want attention for themselves or their work, but it's always in that ballpark.
We associate annoying attention seeking with creators wanting attention for themselves
and being painfully transparent about it through their actions.
When people make games, they want attention, always. Who the hell wants their games to get 10 downloads and be forgotten right away after?
Making them "for" attention is a different thing though, I don't think they are crap for that, it's just not my thing.
Honestly, I don't get why the labels are such a huge deal in the first place. Labels have a point to help people know what to expect, sure, but I feel like game creators should just go ahead and make what they like without worrying about the label. Inspired by Yume Nikki? Great, start your game around that? Have ideas that you like but that may make it less Yume-nikki like? If you think they're good and fit your game (and I'm talking about fitting your game
. Screw the game labels.), then just include 'em, and worry about the label when you actually have a game. I mean if the labels are limiting to the dev process, why bother labeling so early on? Having the game actually made (regardless of what it winds up being) is a hell of a lot better than having the game go in dev hell cause the dev feels conflicted between building another Yume Nikki carbon copy or the game they actually want to make.(Which is the sense I get with some FG developers who change their fangame to a "not Yume Nikki fan game". Making a fangame is less intimidating when you're starting game making, but as they get some game making skills, they seem to realize making something original more satisfying, and worry about whether their new ideas fit the labels or appeal to their audience instead of just making the damn thing.)
The best games tend to be when the devs are passionate and motivated to continue working on their game. I think worrying too much about the labels or a potential audience is just a trap that can lead to making trash in an attempt to pander, or the dev feeling unsatisfied and getting demotivated before they've even gotten their project off the ground. If a game's actually good, people'll probably like the game regardless of what it draws from and whether or not it's labeled as a fangame.
The only issue is that the creators of FGs who de-fangame their games act like it wasn't what they originally wanted to do.
I remember screaming to the heavens about how I didn't originally want Hell Diary
to be an FG, but I think anyone with half a brain knew I was talking out of my ass, since the game was suddenly a nightmare and releases were no longer regular or even incremental updates. It was a lot of remakes as I tried to find out a way to do a non-FG version of what was, in fact, originally intended to be another YN clone. It got a lot of peoples' hopes up but I was basically flying blind on it after that and lied about it a lot.
I get the feeling that, aside from Bleet with TLG, everybody else who did it at that time was putting up the same wall of lies that I was, which is why the FLUX demo sucked as much as it did.
Good point. I get the feeling some of them don't even know what they want to do with their games in those situations, where they don't want to abandon it, but don't want to work on their game either. If they really don't want to work on it, probably better to just be honest and admit it then move on to better projects rather than letting it die a slow death and getting people's hopes up (as you eventually did with Hell Diary, even if it took a bit). Of course, it'd be even better for the game to actually get finished, but if the creator's no longer motivated enough to continue, I think it does more harm than good to not be honest about it. Not committing to anything and making a couple half-hearted updates before going silent and disappearing off the face of the earth seems like a disservice to both their fans and themselves.
I also gotta say I like how you're willing to be up front with your own mistakes with Hell Diary and use it as an example of what not to do. I did think the early version of Hell Dairy was a neat proof of concept, but I think you made the right decision in dropping it and moving on to better projects.
My biggest fail with that game was that I kept trying to work a concept it wasn't designed around and I didn't want to sacrifice things I felt were critical to the plot and game design. I wound up doing separate WIP elements from Hell Diary
better in both subsequent games. No amount of improvements I could make to what was fundamentally outdated ideas could ever live up to the kind of expectations I set with so many re-inventions. So I canned it.
Funny to think I've pretty much come full circle with a new 0.00 on the way for a property that's more in common with the original than the mythical redos, though.
God I forgot my tripcode. How long has it been since I last posted?
Anyway thanks for the comments, Noyemi, I'd really like to open that PT teaser demo up for discussion since I do admit that that part would work better as a fangame and it looks like 2edgy4u-tier shit that seemed like I didn't learn - was about to write a postmortem on my blog addressing it. I'm getting tired of RPG Maker and I'm looking to see what I'm able to push out before the day I leave it as a primary tool I use for gamedev.
Either way, I propose that to an extent, pixel horror games themselves are fangames. How many times have I seen games with descriptions that say "This game is inspired by Ib and the Witch's House!" and is more often than not always about a young girl stuck in some random place.
Not that this is a bad thing, but then there becomes a lot of overlap akin to the YNFG overlap. It becomes the same after a while. Like a handful of YNFG games - esp the fork between East/West in like 2012 - some are attempts to cash in on the popularity of pixel horror that find something to set themselves apart from the crowd. (I admit that I realized I did fall victim to this when I started "de-fangaming" lmao)
tl;dr yn fangame fad moved to a general pixel horror fangame fad
p.s. reason is my boat, vete a la mierda y check my dubs
>>12234>How many times have I seen games with descriptions that say "This game is inspired by Ib and the Witch's House!"
Every game I don't want to play lol
I hate the trend in PT rip offs. I know it's not related to YN or fangames but they're almost as bad as the rush of Slender rip offs.
People (me included) reeeeally wanted PT to be a thing. They say imitation is the highest form of flattery and the flood of ripoffs really shows this to be true.
I can't speak for others' fangames (besides "Don't expect another .flow"), but FOG, an Era 3 fangame (maybe era 2.5?), will stick to its Yume Nikki and LcdDem
roots, although everything that made YN+FG frustrating (like mindlessly aiming in wide open spaces and mazes, getting trapped by chasers, and having to find things in counterintuitively obscure places) is going to be taken out of FOG.
Other dreamFOG games won't be YNFG though; it's already past time to move on from that.
I guess it depends on how difficult it is to code the game. I'm not too well versed in this, but I assume RPGMaker is one of the easiest options for making a game, while learning to work in other programs takes more effort and so the developers are discouraged from it. Combine that with the fact that YN's fanbase is rather small and that the game itself is 13 years old - there's just not a lot of people who would bother to make a cool unique homage to it. Making fangames in the style of the original game is already a trend anyway, so why not follow it?
Though honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if the Japanese fanbase has released some FGs like this that us westerners don't know about.
Also>…regular fangames? I don't mean the YN gameplay / story / thematic styled fangames.>based on the source material with different gameplay and stuff
Since most fangames are similar to YN in gameplay, wouldn't it be more fitting to call them the """regular""" FGs, and the different ones """irregular"""?
>i have too much free time ….jpg
Make more of these please.
As someone who has attempted to make several YNFGs before, I can assure you that not everyone finds it easy to make a game as non-linear as Yume Nikki. For me, one of the main reasons why I never got very far is that I had trouble deciding what to put where. A linear game allows for a more coherent and tailored experience, which is easier to make for me, as there's less guess-work involved about what works best where, especially after you add in more locations.
As a result, my uneducated guess is that a some of the "de-fangame-ing" is simply due to beginner developers having played around with the engine and then realizing that non-linearity doesn't work well for them nor the stories they're interested in telling.
Food for thought.
apparently today Realm released it open beta on itch.io
I don't recommend it. I got maybe about 60-70% in and the puzzles are either incredibly simple (e.g. a 4 digit code you have to enter and the that same 4 digit code written on the wall in that same room) or so weird, tedious or obtuse that it feels like something was lost in translation. I'm assuming English isn't the native language of whoever wrote the game.
As for the rest of the game, there's not really much to explore. Once you've seen one screen of an area you've pretty much seen all of it. I don't think the dialogue would appeal to most people here, either.
I really recommend it, it might as well be the peak of yume-inspired while not being a fangame per-se.
Also, how often do you see a Yume Nikki related game on steam and playstation?
What did you enjoy about it?
Mainly designs, atmosphere and music.
Programmer didn't want to work on it anymore.
That's a shame. I guess it was fun while it lasted.
Not really related to the topic, but
>2kki will die soon, lol moved on to other stuff
There were a lot of times when 2kki's updates slowed down to a crawl, yet it's still kicking even after 10 years, and if I recall correctly, lol's most recent update to .ﬂow came after he released those other games of his. So it's probably still too early to bury those two.
but you raise the great question as to why no one has bothered with mugen characters. kinda think someone would have thought of/done/started that by now>>12569
according to a DL site lol has linked on their page the most recent (up)dates have been
smidge of a difference there. only what, two years. damn.
I guess my memory tricked me after all. Oh well.