[ yn / yndd / fg / yume ] [ o / lit / media / og / ig / 2 ] [ ot / cc / x / sugg ] [ hikki / rec ] [ news / rules / faq / recent / annex / manage ] [ discord / scans / mud / minecraft ] [ aurorachan / desuchan / sushigirl / lewd ]

/yn/ - Yume Nikki General

Name
Email
Subject
Comment
File
:
Password (For file deletion.)

The rules have been updated, effective immediately. Please review them. Specifically rules 6, 7, and 8 have changed or been added, and two guidelines have been removed.
Updated again to ban political ideology and imagery completely.

File: 1501523623896.jpg (44.27 KB, 703x680, 1342772206455[1].jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

 No.6732

Yume Nikki is about a girl with social anxiety who out of boredom undertakes what Nietzsche and Jung considered to be a great task of self-discovery that for most leads to madness–understanding the unconscious forces within. Madotsuki does this through dreams which she then interprets and studies in her "dream diary".

She finds several disturbing things in her dreams. Violent and gory imagery, sexually suggestive creatures and objects, and very distant characters who rarely acknowledge her existence. While her dreams are landscapes of exploration, she finds herself confused, scared, and alone as she traverses through the unconscious. She becomes more and more consumed by her inexplicable attachment to the weird and unsettling things within.

This is why she commits suicide. She can't handle the fact that these things are within her. That deep down we have these violent, sexual, animalistic, creepy, disgusting feelings that swirl in our minds and have an unspoken influence on who we are. This girl with an already low self-esteem and without any means of venting the angst resulting from this shocking discovery turned to end it all. The exploration of our unconscious can be our own undoing. It's a process of self deconstruction which in the hands of a person of weak resolve leads to self destruction.

 No.6733

File: 1501530074830.png (9.76 KB, 728x508, yume_nikki_madotsuki_icons….png) ImgOps Google

>>6732
I'm pretty sure that somebody who literally never goes outside wouldn't have the self-consciousness to kill them self over having a disturbing imagination. Also, very obvious bait, but just felt the urge to write this.
>The Face of Confusion and Fear

 No.6734

File: 1501530306762.jpg (147.33 KB, 500x667, When_you_gaze_long_into_yo….jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>>6733
But what if it isn't her imagination what killed her, but her own ghosts that we can barely see through the mist of her disturbed dreams and which ultimately represent the deepest most dark sentiments of a human being?

 No.6735

>>6734
But what if life is all just a dream and that every meaning that we try to construe from art and life itself is a reflection of how the matrix tried to enslave our bodies and mind for the purpose of luring us into a false sense of security so mr.g can make us all be mind world time cube construct slaves of a higher dimension where cluthulu resides and waits to feast on the souls of the spiritually enlightened tuplas that the lonely people which Freudian chained hearts create through their divine intellect? What then?

 No.6736

When was the last time we discussed a theory unironically?

 No.6737

>>6736
Somewhere back in 2012.
Honestly, I can't see how you could discuss any theory unironically at this point, because all the most logical ones have been discussed and those that weren't are among the most far-fetched, extremely unlikely ones in the first place, following threads of thought similar to these >>6735 where everything is basically allowed just because "there is nothing set on stone about what YN is and isn't". Which is part of its charm, really.

 No.6738

>>6733
>. Also, very obvious bait, but just felt the urge to write this.

I'm a relative newfag here. Is this a copypasta or something? I mean yeah, it's kind of obvious that it's what the game is about, but…why is it bait?

 No.6739

>>6738
It's not a pasta, it's just random concepts thrown together to form a piece that doesn't even fit with YN, AKA bullshitting, hence why anon says it's obvious bait as in "this isn't really a serious theory", moreso because people unaware of this would actually discuss why it isn't Nietzsche/Jung shit and dismiss the imagery thing being why mado jumps off her balcony instead of "insert deep theory about why YN isn't a walking simulator with random events".

 No.6740

>>6739
I see. Yes, it is very generalized, but then, most people's talk is pretty generalized anyway.

>why it isn't Nietzsche/Jung shit


He shouldn't have posted those names at all, but he only used them in the context of a quest of self-discovery. "The unexamined life is not worth living" idea goes back to Socrates, but then, even Socrates entertained Euthyphro.


But I get what you're saying. I just don't think they were intentionally trying to get a rise out of people.

>>6733
>I'm pretty sure that somebody who literally never goes outside wouldn't have the self-consciousness to kill them self over having a disturbing imagination.

Assuming she became a hikki and was not literally born and raised in that room, there was likely some reason for it. As someone who spends every waking moment possible locked in his bedroom with the lights off, I can tell you that isolation affects your imagination in very strange ways when you do not have contact with other people, even in the form of the internet, to bounce ideas around with.

t. used to not have a computer in my bedroom, and some days I really wish it weren't in here.

 No.6742

File: 1501542783881.jpg (484.78 KB, 800x500, __original_drawn_by_ka92__….jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

>>6740
>As someone who spends every waking moment possible locked in his bedroom with the lights off, I can tell you that isolation affects your imagination in very strange ways when you do not have contact with other people, even in the form of the internet, to bounce ideas around with.
Okay, well the theory was about Mado killing herself because she was disturbed by her own sub-consciousness, not why her imagination is weird. Mado comes across as emotionally numb. Not somebody who would easily be creeped out by herself.
Bait is bait. Fishes will be fishes.

 No.6743

>>6740
Well, the main reason why this doesn't fit with YN is because you'd be seeing it through the lens of western "psychology"/"philosophy" when you're literally exploring the subconscious of a little japanese girl. IF you want to argue she's not japanese, then she's either living in Japan, has lived in Japan, or is somehow influenced by Japanese values and views of life, so it still doesn't matter too much. It's hard to think she'd actually stop and ponder over the views of the subconscious and gut her own mind with Freudian-like theories about her own inner thoughts and western morals and how they affect their mind like that then off herself. I mean, it's trying too hard to make it fit into that, with literally no basis backing that idea at all; even the rape theory is more solid than this.
Yes, it could be that, because again, it's not set on stone or anywhere, for that matter, but it's highly unlikely. Or you could even argue Kiki had some psychology books and interest in western authors and whatnot, but just like you can pull one of those analyses out of your hat then we'd have to take things like >>6735 seriously as well.
My point is, OP is trying to explain something by throwing names and ideas but it's not solid enough and actually the only thing you can discuss about it is "this isn't it", hence it's bait. Like my post here >>6734 it doesn't say anything at all.

The more complex something sounds, the more likely it's your own projection than the real deal, is what I say. Like those stains on walls where people would argue you to death that "there's a face!", just because your brain forces you to see those patterns as a face doesn't really mean there's a face on it, it's just an illusion. On the same way, just because you have knowledge of psychology doesn't mean there's that depth of psychology in YN as well, because there are many other things that suggest different it could be something different too.

 No.6744

>Mado commits suicide because of her strange imagination
Mado committed suicide because she saw this thread OP.

 No.6745

File: 1501544055877.jpg (35.68 KB, 304x499, 51dl7vqjKEL._SX302_BO1,204….jpg) ImgOps Exif Google

Op kind of reminds of a book I read in middle school called Siddhartha. The whole thing was just about this random Buddhist Indian kid obsessively trying to reach spiritual enlightenment. He would move from one group of extreme Buddhists to another group while slowly reaching his single-minded goal. He would also constantly monologue for pages about exactly where his mind is on the spiritual enlightenment scale and why he isn't there yet and all sorts of philosophical self-conscious stuff. Eventually he moves to some town where he says fuck it, gets rich and grows middle-aged. One day he just decides to leave everything behind and almost offs himself in the woods in some puddle. He wakes up and realizes how he really fucked up when he left THE PATH. He then becomes some fucking fisherman who can talk to the river and doesn't care about anything. At one point when he was still a boy he met Buddha and told him off for selling a false-promise. Buddha was spiritually enlightened, but his pupils were just doing what he said without reaching the same woke levels as him. The point is, Mado isn't a little, Buddhist Indian boy. Come to think of it there was this white Jewish kid named Siddhartha at my school. God was he annoying. I wanted to beat his pasty, prepubescent bearded(fuck was that thing ugly), self-righteous, jew boy, liberal face in. Good times. 10/10

 No.6746

>>6742
>his theory is wrong, this is my theory

Are you being ironic?

>>6743

> gut her own mind with Freudian-like theories about her own inner thoughts


This is why the OP should not have mentioned those names, because readers are unable to separate anything said after their mentioning.

He doesn't explicitly say, "Mado is obsessed with fucking her dad" he says, "She explores her thoughts. Freud and Nietzche called doing so a 'Great task'" in an attempt to add gravitas. Which is fucking pathetic, I might add. Your words should stand on their own

Take this sentence for instance: I am going to shop at what Freud, Jung, Hitler, Elmer Fudd, Gahndi, and Nietzche would have called a Grocery Store to buy some milk today. I'm going to make some cereal and then probably check my email.

You anons are reading this as "Anon is saying he wants to buy milk because he wants to suck his moms tits and look up porn on the computer" but I was only talking about Freud in the context of what he would consider a grocery store.

All OP was saying was that she went on a quest of what whomever jackoffs would call a quest for self-discovery. Which is what introspection is referred to as in the West. He never specified that he believe Mado used textbook Freudian analysis on herself, just that she tries to interpret the meaning of her dreams, which literally every person who has ever dreamed has wondered about, and then gets so confused that she can't handle the stress anymore.

Yes that is a very general statement, yes it is effectively worthless, but no, the idea itself is not outright wrong or bait. If you think that your mind will not take you to weird places if you lock yourself in a room in isolation (NO INTERNET OR COMPUTER), then you have CLEARLY never spent a long amount of time in such a situation. It begins to drive you fucking crazy. You hallucinate. You talk to yourself. You have nightmares. We are designed to be social creatures at a biological level, and when that need is not met, you get stressed. When you get stressed, you start sleeping like shit and having nightmares. If nothing is done to change this course, things only get worse. That is why I would say the OP's premise is not intrinsically wrong, just very poorly construed and with a lot of flamboyance.

>The more complex something sounds, the more likely it's your own projection than the real deal


>occam's razor

>pattern recognition

In this, you are absolutely correct.

 No.6747

>>6746
Oh no, it's not so much the names that bother me, but the analysis made that sounds very much like something those people would say. Leaving the names aside, it seems way too complex and "deep" even though there's no basis sustaining it.
>OP's premise is not intrinsically wrong, just very poorly construed and with a lot of flamboyance.
That's what I'd call bait, actually.

>Yes that is a very general statement, yes it is effectively worthless, but no, the idea itself is not outright wrong or bait. If you think that your mind will not take you to weird places if you lock yourself in a room in isolation (NO INTERNET OR COMPUTER), then you have CLEARLY never spent a long amount of time in such a situation. It begins to drive you fucking crazy. You hallucinate. You talk to yourself. You have nightmares. We are designed to be social creatures at a biological level, and when that need is not met, you get stressed. When you get stressed, you start sleeping like shit and having nightmares. If nothing is done to change this course, things only get worse.

Well, see? That's actually a basis without the Pyschology PhD bullshit and if OP started with something like that then people wouldn't have called it bait, though it's nothing new, I'm afraid. We know mado is fucked up, but we can't say for sure since when, though we know she's spending time alone in her room that that isn't actually improving the situation. If she wasn't that disturbed at the start of the game then things definitely escalated quickly for the worst the moment she started spending time in her own room, for whatever cause.

>>6745
Siddhartha is actually the name of Buddha (or more correctly, the "first" or most important Buddha). Whoever wrote it either likes satire or wanted quick money.

 No.6748

>>6746
I was just describing why I don't think ops theory makes sense even if it was to be taken seriously. She never talks, she never emotes, she never shows physical signs of emotion, so she's probably not emotional enough to be disgusted into suicide by her inner psyche. Suicide comes in two flavors. Highly emotional and very dull and lethargic.
>whomever jackoffs would call a quest for self-discovery
Nein. Self-discovery is a very broad term while super market isn't. Self-discovery could be learning what foods you like or it could be finding out what's in the deepest recesses of your mind. Jung and who ever the fuck are talking about the very specific act of deeply analyzing what you think and why you think it. This theory is completely unsubstantiated by itself, but it becomes bait when he brought up something that ridiculous.

 No.6749

>>6747
The book takes place during the Gautama Buddha. It's a very well respected piece of literature.

 No.6752

>>6747
>That's what I'd call bait, actually.

I can't really argue that, I just don't think it was totally intentional. "Never attribute to malice what could be adequately explained by incompetence."

> then people wouldn't have called it bait, though it's nothing new, I'm afraid


Yes, definitely unoriginal. The 2deep4u posters just need to lurk moar in general to get a developed sense of objectivity, especially about their public-facing writing.

>>6748

>she's probably not emotional enough to be disgusted into suicide by her inner psyche


While this is speculation, and I don't necessarily agree or disagree with OP's premise, my personal experience, and in speaking with others who are "numb" is that really, the numbing is a reaction to pain.

Again, we are hard-wired to be social, and when whatever is motivating us to stay inside (fear, anxiety) is strong enough to overcome that instinct, something is very wrong. When something is very wrong with your mind, believe me, you are made aware of it.

> Suicide comes in two flavors. Highly emotional and very dull and lethargic.


Why you are ruling out the dull and lethargic suicide after stating she appears emotionally numb to all of the fantastic and wildly interesting things she sees in her dreams is beyond me. Having vivid dreams, and being unaffected by them, would not go unnoticed by her. When you can be moved by very little inside of you, and you've cut yourself off from having new experiences outside, what is left for a person?

Again, unoriginal, but not unfounded.

>Self-discovery is a very broad term while super market isn't.


This is missing the point yet again.

>the theory is unsubstantiated by itself


"Actually your theory is unsubstantiated by itself."

Hint: That's not an argument.

 No.6756

>>6752
>I just don't think it was totally intentional.
If you had been on here long enough, you would be able to tell based on them acting exactly like every other person who has baited. Not everything can be excused by incompetence. Sometimes people do actually do things out of malice. When that happens there's tells.
>When something is very wrong with your mind, believe me, you are made aware of it.
Doesn't it make more sense for her fear and anxiety to directly be the cause of her suicide instead of her being a philosophy major?
>Why you are ruling out the dull and lethargic suicide after stating she appears emotionally numb to all of the fantastic and wildly interesting things she sees in her dreams is beyond me.
I didn't.
>This is missing the point yet again.
I, "missed your point", because your comparison falls flat. You say self-discovery isn't tied to the philosophers op mentioned because self-discovery is a specific thing not tied to those philosophers like a supermarket. I say that the definition of supermarket is constant while self-discovery has different meanings depending on who you ask. Op was, "asking", the philosophers. Op was using their definition.
>"Actually your theory is unsubstantiated by itself."
translation
>You're not allowed to have an opinion about an opinion
We don't see what's in Mado's dream diary, but we do see her body language.

 No.6757

>>6756
>When that happens there's tells.

You look at the pixels? Okay, you don't need evidence, so I didn't have a chance from the start.

>Doesn't it make more sense for her fear and anxiety to directly be the cause of her suicide instead of her being a philosophy major?


Normally when people feel pure fear, say, after someone jumps out from behind a wall with a knife, they don't pull their guns out and shoot themselves. Fear and anxiety on their own normally come and go very quickly.

The fear of society and associated anxiety is a much more complex beast, and it is absolutely possible, even very likely, for that fear to turn in on itself. Questions like, "Why am I this way? Is this my fault?" are very common in depressed people, and are the beginnings such musings on their own suffering. Do you think depressed people don't notice that they are depressed?

Comes down to this:
Is she a one-dimensional character who has pain on the surface of her mind, and simply and impulsively decides to kill herself in one moment? Very possible.

Is she a multi-dimensional character who has pain on multiple levels - direct, social, self-deprecating (e.g. "why am I this way?") who was driven closer and closer to suicide over time?
Also very possible, we simply don't have any dialogue or personal history to go by, but that doesn't mean the theory in itself is unrealistic.

I would say it's besides the point anyway, because my question is not whether the OP's theory is "Correct" or not, but rather, if it is conceivable, which it absolutely is, and whether or not it is bait, which you allege can be claimed without evidence, so that is a logical dead end.

>I didn't.

Then you admit the OP is plausible.

> self-discovery has different meanings depending on who you ask.


Wrong. The __achivement__ of self discovery has different meanings depending on who you ask.

For Freud "self discovery" would be the state of you fucking your grandma.
For Jung "self discovery" would be, I duno, overdosing on LSD and merging your consciousness with the human collective.
For Gahndi it would be becoming a monk.
And so on.

But for every one of them undertaking the __task__ of self discovery (notice the word task in the OP) means the same exact thing: Self-examination. Nothing more. Every interpretation of the examination's findings is unique, but the act of self-examination is the same.

The only thing OP specifies about the method she uses to examine herself is that she keeps a Dream Diary. Period.

He does not say she interprets the violence and gore in a Freudian sense, merely that she records the violence, and is aware that she is dreaming of violence. He does not say she puts a Jungian spin on the cat effect and realizes she wants to be a cat or something, just that she records it and is aware that she is dreaming about being a cat.


>We don't see what's in Mado's dream diary, but we do see her body language.


I think it's safe to assume that because it's called a "dream diary," and that as the players we see what occurs in her dreams, that what we experience what is recorded. I'm not sure what you're getting at with the body language bit, though.

 No.6759

>>6757
>You look at the pixels?
You look at how pretentious and dumb it is.
>The fear of society and associated anxiety is a much more complex beast, and it is absolutely possible, even very likely, for that fear to turn in on itself. Questions like, "Why am I this way? Is this my fault?" are very common in depressed people, and are the beginnings such musings on their own suffering. Do you think depressed people don't notice that they are depressed?
>Is she a one-dimensional character who has pain on the surface of her mind, and simply and impulsively decides to kill herself in one moment? Very possible. Is she a multi-dimensional character who has pain on multiple levels - direct, social, self-deprecating (e.g. "why am I this way?") who was driven closer and closer to suicide over time? Also very possible.
Depressed people know that they are depressed, but this fact is rarely what causes them to commit suicide. The thought, "why am I depressed", doesn't lead to suicide as much as the depression itself. Also, op makes it very clear that Mado killed herself out of apparent disgust with herself that we never get to see. Suicidal people don't commit suicide because they're freaked out by how suicidal they are, they commit suicide because they're suicidal and hate their life. The idea that Mado would reject her inner self that much seems far-fetched.
>Self-examination. Nothing more.
No. self-discovery is simply discovery, not philosophical examination. You could discover an ancient artifact, but that's not the same as examining that artifact and finding out why it exists. Jung and Nietzsche's idea of self-discovery comes with deep philosophical examination, something I can't see Mado doing.
>I think it's safe to assume that because it's called a "dream diary," and that as the players we see what occurs in her dreams, that what we experience what is recorded. I'm not sure what you're getting at with the body language bit, though.
A dream diary could either be a literal recounting of a dream, or as op suggested, the deep examination of the dream to discover the complex truth of the inner psyche. A truth so horrifying upon discovery that it could cause somebody to kill them self. We never see what type of dream diary Mado has, but we do see how she responds to the disturbing things in her dreams, and those responses aren't indicative of being deeply horrified.

 No.6775

>>6759
>look at how pretentious and dumb it is

While dumb is not an argument, I must concede that it is pretentious. I understand why you would think of it as bait. I guess I just want to give things the benefit of the doubt on slower and smaller boards to keep discussion somewhat productive, but that's entirely personal.

>The thought, "why am I depressed", doesn't lead to suicide as much as the depression itself.


Right, I meant more that the thought, "Why am I depressed" would probably be followed by stuff like, "Because I'm a horrible person. I'm ugly, look at what I fap to, I have no friends," etc. Again, we don't see it so it's entirely speculation, so yes the theory is unfounded, it's just not totally implausible, hence my not immediately assuming it was bait.

We're talking past each other on this point.

>something I can't see Mado doing.


Do you think this is an argument?

>we do see how she responds to the disturbing things in her dreams, and those responses aren't indicative of being deeply horrified.


She jumps off of her balcony, which could be interpreted as negative.

Again, I'm not backing the theory in OP! I was only questioning whether or not it was written for the explicit and sole purpose of deceiving people and disrupting discussion, and I still do not believe it was. You will have the last word.

 No.6776

You guys are being very passionate about a silly meme post.

 No.6778

>>6776
such is the curse of autism

 No.6781

>>6778
but I do appreciate the other anon's willingnes to respond in the face of prolonged disagreement

 No.6782

Didn't read the thread but I prefer to think she killed herself because she'd fully transcribed her subconscious to writing and thus exhausted her need for corporeality. Her "soul" effectively was bound to the journal, inanimately or not.

The social anxiety aspects are overblown. She refused to leave her apartment not out of anxiety but because there was no longer anything relevant outside. Something triggered her to decide her outer life was over and required processing before she could end/transcend it.

 No.6788

>>6782
That's pretty interesting.

 No.8308

The way I interpret YN is based on the way I view my own dreams. Every dream I have is based on a real life event I've seen or a real emotion I feel, so I imagine it's the same for Mado.

My theory is that Mado was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and happened to see someone get murdered. When she dreams, her brain sorts her memories based on what emotion she felt at the time. She imagines Poniko in a happy place because Poniko was a friend she shared a lot of happy memories with. The characters in the monochrome world are colorless because she felt emotionless around them (maybe people from school?).

Here's where I tie in the murder theory. I think the dead body in the dark woods is not one of a man who died in a traffic accident, but a man who Mado saw murdered. That's why it takes place in a dark, mysterious place. Mado doesn't understand what death means or why someone would take another person's life. This is also why the knife effect is found in an completely dark area, and why characters just disappear when stabbed. It's too much for her to comprehend.

The more she thinks about seeing a man stabbed to death, the more she wonders what would happen if she tried it. So she finds a knife and starts stabbing people. While they are just people in a dream, it still bothers her. When she wakes up, she is disgusted with herself and can't bear to go outside knowing this darker side of herself. Eventually, the thoughts of death and evil overwhelm her, and does the only thing she can think of.

The way I read it, Yume Nikki is a story of a girl who was exposed to the idea of death far too early in life, and she could never fully understand what it meant.

 No.8310


 No.8312

>>8310
very funny

 No.8373

>>8308
Murder is basically removal. You don't want someone to be there, so you remove them. That's what it is.

I feel compelled to state, for the record, that, as a anonymous mega serial killer and lunatic internet poster myself, I realize that the whole appeal of YN/videogames/internetposting is to semi-deliberately wallow in confusion and unreality for the sake of some obscure and completely sick and wrong, yes, wrong, sense of the "sublime" or "wonder" or whatever. Nevertheless, death and murder are very different. Like, completely different. Just saying. Who knows; might be important.

Also, selectively and painstakingly hiding very tiny bits of a video game whilst mentally enacting an act of stabbing and/or shooting and/or suicide is a poor and limp-wristedly ineffectual slap fight placebo substitute for ALT-F4 -> Uninstall. Not all removal is murder. Some removal is not-murder.

 No.8375

>>8373
Murder isn't removal. The person still exists, just in a different state. The person still left traces of themself and the impact of their death reverberates and can be felt. If the person was really removed, none of their traces would be left and nobody would remember them. People fade, not disappear entirely. Also, I don't think there is an objective, "right", and, "wrong", in that sense. I don't think there's anything bad about the enjoyment people get from escapism. There's also a lot of beautiful things about Yume Nikki. If you only saw the hideous and grotesque parts, you're the one with a warped perception of things.

 No.8378

File: 1524291400046.png (53.94 KB, 221x222, slam.png) ImgOps Google

>>8373
I understand that I am picking pieces out of it, that's why I said it's an interpretation. It's just what I thought when I played it. I'm not just playing for the gory bits, I love almost everything about Yume Nikki, but to explain my interpretation I had to bring up the parts of the game that were relevant to how I interpreted it. Clearly not every single aspect of the game went into that interpretation, and even if it had, I wouldn't bother writing every single bit out.

It's an interpretation. It has points and flaws, I'm not cherry-picking the game. It's a great game and I'll play it and replay it for a long time, and as I play it more my view of the possible story will change. That's the beauty of the game… there's no limit to how the game can be interpreted.



[Return][Go to top] [Catalog] [Post a Reply]
Delete Post [ ]
[ yn / yndd / fg / yume ] [ o / lit / media / og / ig / 2 ] [ ot / cc / x / sugg ] [ hikki / rec ] [ news / rules / faq / recent / annex / manage ] [ discord / scans / mud / minecraft ] [ aurorachan / desuchan / sushigirl / lewd ]