File: 1334203936960.gif (62.44 KB, 420x480, 538614050.gif)
So apparently some of our Japanese correspondents are making a big deal over have outside material appear in our fangames. Some of the people have taken a look inside Umbra's files, and discovered that some of the chipsets/charsets have materials from yume nikki. I didn't understand because NONE of the YN stuff appeared in the game, but apparently they refuse to validate Umbra as a legit fangame because of this. They also brought up Umbra as well as the looking glass) having materials from pokemon games.
But it's a themed world so I really dont understand it. Please tell me your thoughts on this.
Proposal they have written to us: http://notepad.cc/jakeewe97
Website verifying the "validity" of YN fangames:http://wiki.komica.org/wiki3/?%E5%A4%A2%E6%97%A5%E8%A8%98%E7%9A%84%E6%B4%BE%E7%94%9F%E4%BD%9C%E5%93%81
These games have been flagged for containing outside Material.
-Umbra (Yume Nikki, Pokrmon FireRed/Leafgreen)
-The Other Line (YN)
-The Looking Glass (YN, Pokemon Gold/Silver)
(Pic sortof unrelated)
I posted this on tumblr and I'll repost it here for REASONS
ALSO BEFORE THIS HUGE TL;DR I agree that unless they have direct contact with Kikiyama and his sentiments about fangames, it does seem rather rude to insist we follow their rules IF we want to be regarded as worth anything in their own fangame circles:
First of all I suppose I understand their sentiments. Originality is always a plus in fangames and seeing devs take graphics from other games might not appeal to some people, even if they’re small things nobody would notice. On the topic of the pokemon worlds, I find that really interesting because these are made in tribute to those games we loved so much as children. Disclaimers in my game say outright that I do not own any graphics I borrow and that things such as Pokemon are copyrighted to their respective developers.
Not only that but didn’t YN and Other Line also use tilesets very similar to, if not extracted and modified, the ones you may find in Mother? I have not played the games myself but that is what I’ve picked up and if so, how come the japanese fangame community is up in arms about us using pokemon sets and alterations? Is it because they’re japanese? Are only japanese developers allowed to use those or imitations? I might be wrong so if I can be corrected that would be great.
Another word of note, I’ve seen many japanese fangames that have used resources or rehashed images from YN and they’ve been hosted and regarded just as well as others. Yumewo, for example, is like a direct copy of YN in some cases!
Are we not allowed to borrow YN pieces just because we aren’t japanese? Who is entitled to borrowing/remaking? And I know it was mentioned that some japanese devs don’t follow these rules as well, but like I said, I’ve seen some basic rips or alterations in .flow and Yume 2kki as well.
Also might there be a translated version of that fangame validity site?
By the by, I’ll go through my files and list all things I find that are directly from Yume Nikki (seeing how pokemon is a given, and it only seems that YN content is what’s ruining TLG’s rep):
Blood Animation (I think, I cannot remember)
Door Style and Animation
Bike Effect (not included in current version)
Ceiling Tiles (found in bedroom, apartments, mansion)
Balcony (keeps layout but everything drawn for the balcony is original)
Glass Door to Balcony (recolored)
No music, panoramas, sound effects, pictures, or npcs are ripped from YN. All chipsets are original or used free content (excluding the listed items in them). Disclaimers are also written in a readme in the game files as well.
I hope this information I’ve provided is useful.
It sounds unfair in my opinion.
It's up to them though. If they don't want to "validate" western games with "outside content", then they don't have to. You could try to change their minds, but again, that's up to them.
Really though, you should ask yourself if it's that important to have your game "validated" by these guys. Do you want to make a game for them, the fans of your game, or yourself (or maybe a combination of these or other things)? If it's that important to have your game validated by this group, then I suppose you'll have to play by their rules. But it's not like they are the only people out there that play your games.You
have to decide how you want to make your game. You can take advice, look at tutorials, strive to be accepted by specific groups; but in the end you have make the game for you.
Sorry if that sounded preachy or something like that. I've been having a hard time not blowing a gasket over this, and I wanted to post a bit more of an objective post rather than an angry rant (and if it sounds like an angry rant…Uh, well, I didn't intend that (I_I) ).
Also, I'm less on the side of these "validators", but I think I can sort of understand how they may
feel; perhaps it's like seeing foreigners misrepresent or disrespect their culture (as >>5040
may have alluded to).
Films commonly reuse actors, props and even sets. Animation studios commonly recycle material: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJGjZsrk0YI
The Japanese recycled a great deal of their culture from the Chinese. Perhaps you should mention that. lol.
I do have to admit it is ironic. What's ironic too is that they flag half of our games for "stolen content" and only two of their own games for it (in that list posted anyway).
The difference here is that it appears for them it's generally acceptable to make recolors of yume nikki sprites (as MANY of their accepted games do so), or "recolor" events like .flow's version of the Witch event, but we apparently aren't allowed to.
Irene's bed was a recolor of Sabitsuki's, whose in turn was a recolor of Madotsuki's. I've fixed it now because I did promise I would and this current situation got me motivated to do it, but I still find everything rather silly.
Well of course this is a valid point. In defense of my own game I clearly stated in the README file that there are graphics borrowed as placeholders until I designed my own. Not all fangame makers might admit to that or promise that, but I feel it shouldn't be nearly as big of an issue if the dev takes responsibility for any rips they have done.
I myself have no problem with other devs borrowing my tilesets and etc as placeholders as long as they are responsible and eventually make their own. I've had to go into various fangame files myself and extract chipsets or animations or character sets to learn how layering tiles work or animating things work and etc.
And even though I encourage originality, I still acknowledge that these are free games made from free sources and to expect every single person using them to create original content is laughable.
1) Were not flaunting it in our game. All the borrowed materials stud on the image file.
2) Of course you can make a Yume Nikki fansprite from scratch. No guide or anything. Totally possible.
I'm not sure why you consider a bunch of unknown people throwing a tantrum to be a problem, to be honest
Either way, an easier solution to this problem would be for them to either keep their opinions to themselves or work towards resolving their own issues, i.e. their patronizing attitude, their over-inflated ego and their undue sense of self-importance
It does seem to be a cultural thing. This isn't quite like the Doom WAD community, where a significant chunk of files there, even the stuff from KDiZD, are free to use.
Japan isn't quite as conducive to sharing stuff as, say, America or Europe, where a lot of freeware is either open source or at least allow verbatim redistribution. A lot of Japanese fansites don't even allow ordinary linking without permission. They do this in an attempt to remain fairly invisible, perhaps to save face. (e.g.: somebody might lose their job if their yaoi or loli fan art is scattered all over the Internet.)
What really surprises me, though, is that no Japanese YN fangame author ever freaked out over spoilers in gameplay videos like many other Japanese game developers, big and small, have.
There's a lot of things wrong with this whole thread, but it wouldn't make a good topic to drag each and every one out. So,
It's a simple request; no finger pointing or any other nonsense about validation. Honestly, to me this is just the norm for how they do things, with the added exception of someone overseas taking a look at all the fangames made here, noticing a particular trend of ripped graphics, and going, "What the hell?!"
I'll agree that the validation part of this tangent shouldn't faze you, but maybe you should take their advice before coping a rebellious attitude.
However, I will agree that this snippet
>If you would like to make a fangame, I would like you to behave in a way of Japan.
is awful and pretty dictatorial. I lost a couple handfuls of respect towards this because of that, but I'm not going to go ahead and say "stick it to the japs".
I dunno, it's just, they could've passed the message "Stop pirating shit please since we don't want to take any chances." along without getting all "YOU IN OUR COURT YOU PLAY BY OUR RULES" about it.
It's okay. The same can be said of Japan games here, really.
We're just not going to escape how different our and their tastes are. Things like this just proves how you will never be friends with GLORIOUS NIPPON and vice versa.
Course, don't take that too literally. There'll always be the people who can put their differences aside. I'm talking about in general.
I'm just talking about culture in general, using vidya games to keep it topical. You have the Japanese video games which can be enjoyable no matter how your tastes are influenced by your culture. And then you have nippon games that follow trends, niches, memes, standards, etcetera, that would normally work in its own country where said culture is made and appreciated, but will only serve as a detriment anywhere else.
You can replace Japan with any country of origin and you can bring forth the same problem found in games too influenced by the culture they're in.
I mean, hell, all of us can probably put our differences aside when it comes to agreeing upon something or working together, but, the majority of humans tend to refuse to. It's just how life is.
That's not what they did, either. They just found some leftover tiles or stuff. I don't even know.
Basically they nitpicked to find stuff or just flagged them falsely.
They may not supposedly "represent" the country's attitude as a whole, but it's strikingly similar still.
Really, I have relatives living in Japan. I'm not just making things up on how they act so elitist to anyone not natively Japanese (and god forbid if you're part Chinese or Korean!)
It's quite true though that we might be blowing things over proportions here, and we should be making our fangames for the community here rather than for credits from the Japanese.
Supposedly everything in YN was made by Kikiyama himself, although of course the art styles were imitated. That makes it stand out from other RPG Maker games, most of which rely heavily on RTP, First Seed Material, etc.
Which makes me wonder though if Urotsuki, Sabitsuki, Chie, etc. were really drawn from scratch too? o-o (I'm not advocating stealing here.)
File: 1334968296479.png (16.01 KB, 500x568, fgsprites.png)
Actually, alot of fangame characters appeared to be recolored from Urotsuki, rather than Madotsuki. (though Uro herself is a recolor, so I guess that makes them recolors of recolors? Something like that.)
How can you tell?
Well, sometimes it's easier than others. Here's just a couple of examples:
Sabitsuki: Has the same skirt length as Urotsuki (Mado's was a pixel higher, while the 2kki devs slightly redrew it). In addition, older sprites of Sabi reveal a stray pixel on Sabitsuki's side sprites that were removed in later versions (ver.0.09 to be exact). I was intrigued about the small detail, and upon closer inspection noticed it matched up with a pixel on the side sprites of Urotsuki (see pic), meaning that lol didn't use Madotsuki's sprite as a base, but rather Urotsuki's. Probably due to the fact that all of YN's data files are compressed into .xyz files while 2kki's are just regular old .png.
Irotsuki: Kinda obvious, actually. Not really any explanation needed.
Gorotsuki: (from Dream Book) Just
Urotsuki with the twintails effect colored black.
Chie: Look closely at the highlight spots in her hair. And again, same skirt length as Urotsuki.
Note that in later versions of LcdDem, Koronba added more detail to Chie's sprite, and even tweaked the walking sprites a little (compare to the "final" sprite underneath the original).
I'm also pretty sure Yume Nikki graphics are done from scratch. >>5037>Not only that but didn’t YN and Other Line also use tilesets very similar to, if not extracted and modified, the ones you may find in Mother? I've actually seen people say that the trees in the YN FC world are direct rips from MOTHER. They aren't, they just look similar.
←- Yume Nikkihttp://images.wikia.com/yumenikki/images/7/74/Home.gif
←- Mother 1
(images courtesy of Yume Nikki Wiki)
And in The Other Line's case, all the trees in the 8bit/FC world were made from scratch.
File: 1334990719114.png (7.7 KB, 401x273, twinkleele.png)
Deciphering Yume Nikki's borrowed assets requires that you atleast have a large familiarity with the games it sources from and a rudimentary understanding of sprite modifying techniques.
I don't have a YN's mall rooftop image to compare, but it's fairly plain that Kikiyama recolored EB material and embellished the differences by overlaying color and adding atmospheric details. This method is quite valid, and it makes sense that a developer unvetted in pixel art would incorporate outside material for purposes of efficiency and reference.
(That was actually pretty interesting. Thanks!)
File: 1335110875626.gif (52.15 KB, 448x653, earthbound_people_sheet.gif)
I'm pretty sure that Kikiyama did not at least draw inspiration from the sprite design of Earthbound.
He has a whole area set up as basically a massive love letter to the Mother series.
Nope, I'm definitely sure he didn't draw any inspiration from that. Nooo sir.
To be fair, it really doesn't help that the original letter has a tone of talking down to someone. Which might be an issue of translation, I don't know.
Not to mention, a group of people who have taken it upon themselves to verify the validity of -fangames-, really?? I mean, it's good that they're keeping an eye out for non-original material but c'mon.
Criticism without the over-inflated ego would be preferable.
File: 1340424962588.png (28.23 KB, 320x240, untitled.PNG)
He might have gotten the idea from Mother, but he didn't just take the building and recolor it, he drew his own. If you look at 'em side by side, they're quite different.